Discerning A Discalced Carmelite Vocation - And Nervous

[Carmelshrimp]

I don't mean to become too tangential, but could you explain what you mean by this? Is it related to the way in which these personal humiliations are handled?

 

Not humiliations but the vocation itself.  i wouldn't get too worried by 'humiliations'.  The purpose of them isn't to degrade but to move the Carmelite closer to God through the willing acceptance of the authority of her superiors.  The specific Carmelite vocation is that well-worn but apt phrase "love at the heart of the Church", and if a vocation is to love it's not going to express itself in belittling or wounding those who seek to embrace it.  Following God's call isn't anybody's bed of roses, but if Carmel is your vocation it's compelling and beautiful, not something to be feared - and neither are the other sisters.  They may not all be easy to live with, but that's communities for you.  I'd say explore with courage and hope and wait for God to let you know if this is where he wants you to be.  And if it is - go for it!
 

[SilentJoy]

Also, can anyone tell me if something is normal? It is bothering me, although I can't see that it is necessarily a problem.

 

A Sister was exchanging letters, and occasional phone calls, with me on behalf of the Monastery over the past 6 or 7 months. Because I am partway through the application process, I am in communication only with the Reverend Mother now; my last few letters to the Sister were responded to by Mother instead, and then she explained that, at this part, she usually 'takes over.' The second to last letter I sent to the Sister was the one about the emotional abuse mentioned in my opening post (it had been a recent revelation; until that point, I hadn't labeled it to myself as 'abusive,' I just thought I'd been too sensitive as a kid). The Sister was asked to hold a response for 3 weeks while Mother thought and prayed about it; then Mother responded first, and after that the Sister was allowed to send her last letter to me. This was what initially prompted this thread; I was concerned that I was being "shunned" and that no one was permitted to talk to me, not even to explain why they couldn't talk to me...

 

 

[SilentJoy]

I should add that I am also worried because, when I asked for some idea about the types of individual penances practiced (beyond the community fast, etc.), Sister said that I would be learning about this in the Novitiate. Is it common to not be told something like this? I wish it was possible to be more upfront about it, since it seems like a subject that could potentially be disturbing. She would not have had to implicate anyone (i.e., "Sister J------- kneels until her knees bleed...").

 

To alleviate concern, I do discuss things with Reverend Mother; I just feel like I should be communicating with "outside" voices too, because other people seem to know what they're doing and I don't. :paperbag:

[maximillion]

If you scroll just a bit further down the threads you will see one called Carmelite Customs.

 

I think there is a section there that deals with some of the specifics.

 

Of course there are always little differences between the various communities, but have a read of that section then ask whatever specific questions you want.

[SilentJoy]

If you scroll just a bit further down the threads you will see one called Carmelite Customs.

 

I think there is a section there that deals with some of the specifics.

 

Of course there are always little differences between the various communities, but have a read of that section then ask whatever specific questions you want.

 

Thanks!

[AnneLine]

SilentJoy,

 

I will pray for you and your discernment.

 

Regarding the info on the Carmelite Customs thread, I would be a little hesitant to read that too literally. 

 

This is the reason:  Not every community follows those practices right now.  Many very good communities have chosen to adapt those in big or small ways.   Each Carmel is VERY different from all the others, and you have to be able to trust enough to do what the sisters in the community to which you are applying are asking you to do.

 

I have already said what I am about to say ON the Carmelite Customs thread... but I think it bears repeating. 

 

I am the formation director in a secular Order community.  We get people who apply to our community with some very strong ideas about what the formation they 'should' be receiving would look like... because they have read all about it on line or have friends in a different community who have already gone through Secular Order Formation.  They think they know what to expect.

 

BUT every community is  little different... even if for only the reason that each one is filled with different people by definition!   Our community has developed our own formation program that is based on the general guidelines, but we do things a little differently as well.  AND that is completely permitted under our constitutions.  It can be EXTREMELY irritating to us to have aspirants tell us we are 'doing it wrong'.  What we have to keep saying to them is exactly what the sisters have said to you.... you need to let us form you the way we will form you.  Some things you will learn as a postulant, others as a novice, others as a temporarily professed, others as a solemnly professed nun.  It isn't that they are keeping anything from you, but you won't understand and could misunderstand things if you don't have a proper context in which to understand the information.  And if I were a little devil, I would LOVE to be able to get in there and muck up someone's good will....  oh yes!

 

It also makes it really difficult for the community to form someone if they are pre-determined what they will and will not do and want to learn and don't want to learn.   You just need to take it one step at a time.  If you are supposed to be there, you will know.  And if you are NOT supposed to be there, you will know.  So be at peace.

 

You have told the superiors of your concerns, and you have seen people's responses to you on this thread, and possibly on the 'leaving the monastery' thread.  No good community will go out of their way to torture the sisters!!!!   There will always be a certain amount of correction, humiliations, moments when you must obey even if you don't agree, etc.  But this is a normal thing to expect of any kind of religious formation -- or even life in an office or family!  It is just part of everyday life!  I certainly had moments like that when I was in counseling school, and in my marriage!    But if you trust the people with whom you are associating, it is bearable.   It is only when you cannot trust or are afraid or hesitant that a big problem can develop.

 

So... That's why I'd stay away from the 'Customs' thread and things like that...

 

What MIGHT be helpful is this book:  My Beloved, The Story of a Carmelite Nun by Mother Catherine Thomas of Divine Providence, OCD.   That book is about 60 years old, and in many Carmels, some of the details of what she writes are no longer practiced.  Much of what she writes WOULD be true of a fairly traditional Carmel (and the 1990's in general) even in 2013.   Chances are the plumbing may have been updated!   Possibly even the electrical system!   (and I am not kidding about that -- there are old life magazine articles on Mother Catherine Thomas showing the nuns with Candles in the choir of the Oklahoma City choir... because they didn't have electrical lights... because there was no electrical grid in their area when they moved there!   But that has long ago been changed!!!!)  And that is true of MANY of the customs you read about in some of the older books.... some are not customs of Carmel or other orders... they are realities of daily life from 1850 or 1900!  EVERYONE washed in bowls at that point!  

 

The spirit of the Carmelite order that she shares really would continue to be true... just some of the details have changed.

 

Here's a link to an on-line version of this book!

 

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001591870

 

Hope this helps!  Feel free to PM if you wish....

Edited December 13, 2013 by AnneLine

[SilentJoy]

 Some things you will learn as a postulant, others as a novice, others as a temporarily professed, others as a solemnly professed nun.  It isn't that they are keeping anything from you, but you won't understand and could misunderstand things if you don't have a proper context in which to understand the information. 

 

 

Thanks, that makes sense. They're just making sure that I'm going to be well-prepared to receive information that could otherwise be strange or damaging.

[AnneLine]

YES.   Exactly.

 

But you might enjoy My Beloved.... and you may find some of your family and friends may find it helpful, too.  Or A Right To Be Merry by Mother Mary Francis -- it's about the Poor Clare Colettines, but very similar....

[SilentJoy]

YES.   Exactly.

 

But you might enjoy My Beloved.... and you may find some of your family and friends may find it helpful, too.  Or A Right To Be Merry by Mother Mary Francis -- it's about the Poor Clare Colettines, but very similar....

 

Thanks for the book recommendations!

[AnneLine]

hehehe well... come down to the Lame Board and check out the Advent to Candlemas reading challenge -- we DARE you to read one or both of those books!!!!  And have some phun with us while you do it!

[SilentJoy]

 

 

Specifically I am concerned about shaming and shunning.

 

Okay, I sent a letter to Reverend Mother a couple weeks ago. I mentioned that I had been concerned about shunning, and that an online community assured me that there was no such practice. She called me back today and said, "Nobody ever asked THAT one before, you're the first..." :winner:

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

Okay, I sent a letter to Reverend Mother a couple weeks ago. I mentioned that I had been concerned about shunning, and that an online community assured me that there was no such practice. She called me back today and said, "Nobody ever asked THAT one before, you're the first..." :winner:

 

 

Its so nice that she got back to you so soon about your questions. I hope your conversation was helpful for your discernment. :)

[SilentJoy]

Its so nice that she got back to you so soon about your questions. I hope your conversation was helpful for your discernment. :)

 

Yes, Mother was very kind and seemed amused. She said that it was normal to have a lot of apprehension because I knew what I was leaving, but not what I was coming into.

[SilentJoy]

Any advice on how I will know that I am at peace with the possibility of being accepted to a Monastery when it is normal to be nervous or apprehensive?

[graciandelamadrededios]

Hi Silentjoy!

 

It is normal to be nervous or apprehensive. 

 

When your find the Carmel that you feel you belong, you will be at peace. 

 

My advise, ask Mother Prioress any questions that pops in your head, she would appreciate it.

 

Regarding Carmelite Customs, the vary even before Vatican II - there are two distinct group - the Spanish and French Customs.   After Vatican II, each Carmel are encourage to formulate their own customary or house statutes with or without the help the federation or associations they belong.

 

In Carmel, the operative word is: "Necessity has no law" as specified in the Carmelite Rule.

 

May God give you peace!

 

 

Gracian