Swim Suit Competitions

[Nihil Obstat]

Pornography means something like "the drawing of the harlot" (Terribly paraphrased, but very similar wording). In that sense, I suppose movies and online pornography isn't really pornography, because those are videos, not pictures and drawings.

Meh. That is kind of sloppy etymology.

pornography (n.) Look up pornography at Dictionary.com
1843, "ancient obscene painting, especially in temples of Bacchus," from French pornographie, from Greek pornographos "(one) depicting prostitutes," from porne "prostitute," originally "bought, purchased" (with an original notion, probably of "female slave sold for prostitution"), related to pernanai "to sell," from PIE root *per- (5) "to traffic in, to sell" (see price (n.)) + graphein "to write" (see -graphy). A brothel in ancient Greek was a porneion.

In reference to modern works by 1859 (originally French novels), later as a charge against native literature; sense of "obscene pictures" in modern times is from 1906. Also sometimes used late 19c. for "description of prostitutes" as a matter of public hygiene. The "Medical Archives" in 1873 proposed porniatria for "the lengthy and really meaningless expression 'social evil hospital' ...."
I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that. [U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, concurring opinion, "Jacobellis v. Ohio," 1964]
In ancient contexts, often paired with rhypography, "genre painting of low, sordid, or unsuitable subjects." Pornocracy (1860) is "the dominating influence of harlots," used specifically of the government of Rome during the first half of the 10th century by Theodora and her daughters. Pornotopia (1966) was coined to describe the ideal erotic-world of pornographic movies.

[SaintOfVirtue]

In the same way Jesus linking lust in the heart and adultery is "gratuitous and extreme"?

 

Both lust of the heart and adultery are objectively lustful actions, so the comparison was apt.  A beauty pageant is not objectively lustful, therefore the comparison does not hold.

 

 

Pornography means something like "the drawing of the harlot" (Terribly paraphrased, but very similar wording). In that sense, I suppose movies and online pornography isn't really pornography, because those are videos, not pictures and drawings.

 

No, what you gave is the etymology of the word pornography, not the meaning.  The meaning incorporates much more than drawings as I am sure we are all well aware.  But for the sake of the argument, even if we were arguing semantics your conclusion would still be wrong because modern pornography is made using photography, videography, or cinematography.  See all these words share something in common, and that is the "ography" ending.  "Ography" is from the Greek root "graphien" which means to draw, write, or record.  So even though it may be a movie it's still a 'drawing', etymologically speaking.  It was drawn with sight (videography), or with light (photography), or moving light (cinematography).

 

"Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties" ~CCC 2354

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't think it's modest

[PhuturePriest]

Meh. That is kind of sloppy etymology.

pornography (n.) Look up pornography at Dictionary.com
1843, "ancient obscene painting, especially in temples of Bacchus," from French pornographie, from Greek pornographos "(one) depicting prostitutes," from porne "prostitute," originally "bought, purchased" (with an original notion, probably of "female slave sold for prostitution"), related to pernanai "to sell," from PIE root *per- (5) "to traffic in, to sell" (see price (n.)) + graphein "to write" (see -graphy). A brothel in ancient Greek was a porneion.

In reference to modern works by 1859 (originally French novels), later as a charge against native literature; sense of "obscene pictures" in modern times is from 1906. Also sometimes used late 19c. for "description of prostitutes" as a matter of public hygiene. The "Medical Archives" in 1873 proposed porniatria for "the lengthy and really meaningless expression 'social evil hospital' ...."
I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that. [U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, concurring opinion, "Jacobellis v. Ohio," 1964]
In ancient contexts, often paired with rhypography, "genre painting of low, sordid, or unsuitable subjects." Pornocracy (1860) is "the dominating influence of harlots," used specifically of the government of Rome during the first half of the 10th century by Theodora and her daughters. Pornotopia (1966) was coined to describe the ideal erotic-world of pornographic movies.

 

I would have looked it up, but I have a monitoring program on my computer that would flip out if I were to Google something like "Pornography". Surely you understand why I did not look it up in that case. Trust me, it really bothers me when I'm unable to give a completely correct and accurate explanation for something.

[Nihil Obstat]

I would have looked it up, but I have a monitoring program on my computer that would flip out if I were to Google something like "Pornography". Surely you understand why I did not look it up in that case. Trust me, it really bothers me when I'm unable to give a completely correct and accurate explanation for something.

That is why you first navigate to http://www.etymonline.com. :proud: Nobody could possibly fault you for looking up references. :smile3:

[PhuturePriest]

That is why you first navigate to http://www.etymonline.com. :proud: Nobody could possibly fault you for looking up references. :smile3:

 

You'd be incredibly surprised.

[Nihil Obstat]

Reasonable people, at any rate...

[ChristinaTherese]

That is why you first navigate to http://www.etymonline.com. :proud: Nobody could possibly fault you for looking up references. :smile3:

That's a fantastic website.

[PhuturePriest]

I'm not yet convinced that a beauty pageant is comparable to pornography. However, it is degrading to women as it calls to focus their looks. People say "Oh, they wear bikinis to show off the bikinis." Really? Than why do people rate the girl and not the bikini? If it was about the bikini the judges would say "Your bikini looks great, I love it's colors, it just looks per. fect." But that's not what they say, is it? They say "You look great in this bikini", "Your figure is shown well in this bikini", etc. They don't mention the bikini as the focus, they focus on your body and mention the bikini.

 

And really, bikinis and bras and panties are not any different except bikini tops have no wires. If girls flip out because I accidentally walked in on them in their bra and panties, they should flip out just as much because I saw them in a bikini. You can tell me any different if you want, but that's how guys see them. I've asked guys if they think there's any difference between them, and they all say they don't look any different in their eyes. And these are good, devout, chaste young Catholic men, mind you. I would personally flip out if I had daughters and they were wearing bikinis. I have the same respect for other girls that I would have for my daughters.

Edited November 26, 2013 by FuturePriest387

[Lilllabettt]

I'm not yet convinced that a beauty pageant is comparable to pornography. However, it is degrading to women as it calls to focus their looks. People say "Oh, they wear bikinis to show off the bikinis." Really? Than why do people rate the girl and not the bikini? If it was about the bikini the judges would say "Your bikini looks great, I love it's colors, it just looks per. fect." But that's not what they say, is it? They say "You look great in this bikini", "Your figure is shown well in this bikini", etc. They don't mention the bikini as the focus, they focus on your body and mention the bikini.

 

And really, bikinis and bras and panties are not any different except bikini tops have no wires. If girls flip out because I accidentally walked in on them in their bra and panties, they should flip out just as much because I saw them in a bikini. You can tell me any different if you want, but that's how guys see them. I've asked guys if they think there's any difference between them, and they all say they don't look any different in their eyes. And these are good, devout, chaste young Catholic men, mind you. I would personally flip out if I had daughters and they were wearing bikinis. I have the same respect for other girls that I would have for my daughters.

 

 

if someone exposes her body, hoping that said onlookers will look her up and down and give her money because they approve of what she has shown them by exposing herself, that is called stripping.

 

how is what women do in a swimsuit competition different?

 

the bikini debate is rather beside the point, see post #25. Most women who wear a bikini to the beach do so because they like to sunbathe/ swim in that kind of suit. That may be a prudent choice or not, but its beside the point. Women in a swimsuit competition are not exposing themselves because its their favorite way to swim, they are exposing themselves because they hope that people will see their bodies, rank them higher than the bodies of other similarily exposed women, and award them money for it.

[Basilisa Marie]

It could certainly be considered soft core pornography.  Porn isn't always super explicit sexual acts. 

 

If swimsuit competitions really were about comparing "poise" or even physical fitness (as Miss America contests claim), there are still other, better ways of doing that without hypersexualizing the contestants. Why not make fitness more like talent, or even standardize it with a one-piece swimsuit? They explicitly changed the rules to allow skimpier suits in an attempt to pull in more ratings and reach the "younger crowd."  The Evening Wear may be about beauty and poise.  The swimsuits are about sex. 

[Basilisa Marie]

And really, bikinis and bras and panties are not any different except bikini tops have no wires. If girls flip out because I accidentally walked in on them in their bra and panties, they should flip out just as much because I saw them in a bikini. 

 

Bikini tops have wires just as often as bras do, :)  Or do not, for that matter. 

 

And women react that way because it's simple - in one context she's choosing to reveal an amount of her body because it's an appropriate context, and others are likely doing the same, so there's not as much focus on her. In the other context, she's not choosing to reveal that same amount because it's an inappropriate context, and she's alone so all the focus is on her. 

 

It's not just about a percentage of skin that's being shown.  Intention, action, and circumstance are the three parts of how we "measure" if something is sinful. 

 

The same idea could be applied to swim suit competitions.  Wearing a swimsuit, or even a bikini, may or may not be wrong. The intention behind wearing said swimsuit may or may not be wrong.  But what most of this thread seems to have been concerned with is whether or not the circumstance (beauty pageants) in which the swimsuits are being worn is appropriate. 

Edited November 26, 2013 by Basilisa Marie

[PhuturePriest]

Bikini tops have wires just as often as bras do, :)  Or do not, for that matter. 

 

And women react that way because it's simple - in one context she's choosing to reveal an amount of her body because it's an appropriate context, and others are likely doing the same, so there's not as much focus on her. In the other context, she's not choosing to reveal that same amount because it's an inappropriate context, and she's alone so all the focus is on her. 

 

It's not just about a percentage of skin that's being shown.  Intention, action, and circumstance are the three parts of how we "measure" if something is sinful. 

 

The same idea could be applied to swim suit competitions.  Wearing a swimsuit, or even a bikini, may or may not be wrong. The intention behind wearing said swimsuit may or may not be wrong.  But what most of this thread seems to have been concerned with is whether or not the circumstance (beauty pageants) in which the swimsuits are being worn is appropriate. 

 

If a girl wants to argue that wearing a bikini is acceptable because it makes it easier to swim, that's a different argument (I can see how wearing almost nothing would make it easier. :P). However, in the context of beauty pageants, they are drawing attention to their bodies, as you said, so it is not appropriate.

[SaintOfVirtue]

I'm not yet convinced that a beauty pageant is comparable to pornography. However, it is degrading to women as it calls to focus their looks.

It's pretty obvious that calling focus to a woman's looks is not objectively degrading. If it were complimenting a woman on her looks would be degrading as well.

 

if someone exposes her body, hoping that said onlookers will look her up and down and give her money because they approve of what she has shown them by exposing herself, that is called stripping.

Your logic does not hold, this is yet another False Analogy.

how is what women do in a swimsuit competition different?

How is it different? Are you kidding me?
The women in the swim suit competitions don't walk through the audience letting themselves be groped and they don't dance around poles simulating sex acts. Quite an obvious difference I'm not sure how you missed it.

[Lilllabettt]

you may be sheltered, Saintof Virtue. Most strip clubs have a "no touch" policy and most strippers are not pole dancers.

The main difference I see between performance in a swimsuit competition and a performance in a strip club is that the strip club makes the sexual suggestion explicit in the behavioral space while the swimsuit competition mentalizes it. Which, as Slappo pointed out, is no true distinction from the Christian perspective - lust in the heart is truly adultery despite the fact that it is mentalized. It is really only a question of degree, e.g., a strip club performance usually involves removal of the bikini top, while the swim suit competition has them keep it on. Although in many clubs that is illegal and they wear small triangles which are not too different from a swimsuit. In both performances the audience is someone who is watching and judging the woman's exposed body.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Lilllabettt