Lifeteen Fosters Vocations

[PhuturePriest]

Did you know that there's also a gift called interpreting tongues?  So many people put so much emphasis on speaking in tongues because it's such a strange gift, but really it shouldn't be given so much attention, especially if there isn't a true interpreter around. 

 

I was unaware of this. Very interesting.

[blazeingstar]

Yeah, that's one reason why youth groups succeed, because young people have particular issues that they're dealing with on all kinds of levels, so they really need a bit of catering. But that's what youth nights are for, to address those issues. And most parishes have zero unmarried young adult ministry, so it can be hard to find your place at a parish until you're married, because then you finally fit in with the majority population. The homily really is just supposed to explain the readings, at the bare minimum. Parishes should develop religious ed programming to help address the particular needs of all the groups. 

 

 

Yes, but that would, as one of the people once said after Mass "spoil the take".  The older folks enjoy being catered to and have come to expect it.

 

Did you know that there's also a gift called interpreting tongues?  So many people put so much emphasis on speaking in tongues because it's such a strange gift, but really it shouldn't be given so much attention, especially if there isn't a true interpreter around. 

 

 

You do know interpretation of tounges can remain private, right...in many authentic cases people don't preach what they hear.

[Basilisa Marie]

You do know interpretation of tounges can remain private, right...in many authentic cases people don't preach what they hear.

 

Of course, obviously. My point was that people shouldn't make speaking in tongues the center of attention, especially if there isn't someone around who can interpret it so others can also benefit from the message. 

[dells_of_bittersweet]

As for music, I grew up with TobyMac, DC Talk, Newsboys, Hawk Nelson, Relient K, Matt Maher, all the really good bands from the '90s, but I still heavily prefer traditional hymns, Latin chant in particular. I've never heard chant in Mass before, and that to me is a tragedy, especially considering Vatican II and previous Papacies have heavily emphasized it in the Mass.

 

Of all the artists you mentioned, only one of them writes worship music (Matt Maher), and by that I mean songs that they intentionally wrote to be sung in church. The other guys are entertainers whose music is more for personal enjoyment. Most stuff written by these guys I would not ever play at Mass. Its not liturgically appropriate and I hope your impression of people doing worship music at Mass isn't of someone blasting people out of the pews with Hawk Nelson. There's a huge difference between rock, which is what many of these guys are doing, and worship.

 

As for traditional old hymns, they aren't traditional. Almost any old hymn in English comes from the Anglican faith tradition or anther Protestant tradition (such as the hymns of Charles Wesley). What is traditional is old Latin Gregorian chant-but Latin chant is very different from old hymns, which in the history of the church, are only slightly older than praise and worship. 

[PhuturePriest]

Of all the artists you mentioned, only one of them writes worship music (Matt Maher), and by that I mean songs that they intentionally wrote to be sung in church. The other guys are entertainers whose music is more for personal enjoyment. Most stuff written by these guys I would not ever play at Mass. Its not liturgically appropriate and I hope your impression of people doing worship music at Mass isn't of someone blasting people out of the pews with Hawk Nelson. There's a huge difference between rock, which is what many of these guys are doing, and worship.

 

As for traditional old hymns, they aren't traditional. Almost any old hymn in English comes from the Anglican faith tradition or anther Protestant tradition (such as the hymns of Charles Wesley). What is traditional is old Latin Gregorian chant-but Latin chant is very different from old hymns, which in the history of the church, are only slightly older than praise and worship. 

 

Where has Matt Maher ever claimed he wrote his songs to be sung in Mass? Matt Maher was at NCYC, but not one of his songs was played during Mass, and he didn't even sing at Mass. I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply curious if he himself said it was to be done at Mass, or if this is your own assumption about his music. In my experience, worship music is more for praying at youth groups together, and sometimes even when youth groups are at adoration, but not Mass. I've never heard a Matt Maher song at Mass before, or one like it.

[NotreDame]

While you guys are back on the subject, let me ask this question again... Where is any of this "speaking in tongues" kind of stuff in the lives of the saints?  You hear about this in the acts of the apostles, then you don't hear about it at all until the pentecostal revival movement began, so what happened for the 1900 years in between? 

 

 

 

 

[NotreDame]

but I still heavily prefer traditional hymns, Latin chant in particular. I've never heard chant in Mass before, and that to me is a tragedy, especially considering Vatican II and previous Papacies have heavily emphasized it in the Mass.

 

My guess is that most younger people do feel the same way and if they don't they'd change their mind if they knew that traditional/latin/chant were an option.  I don't think teens go to church to get modern society reflected back at them or to get something that's indistinguishable from a protestant service.  They want something that's timeless and set apart from the world. 

[PhuturePriest]

My guess is that most younger people do feel the same way and if they don't they'd change their mind if they knew that traditional/latin/chant were an option.  I don't think teens go to church to get modern society reflected back at them or to get something that's indistinguishable from a protestant service.  They want something that's timeless and set apart from the world. 

 

If young people heard chant and knew it was an option, they'd go for it. But nobody gives it as an option, and nobody uses it. People can't claim teens prefer worship music if they aren't given the option of chant. I love worship music, I love classic rock like Aerosmith, Guns N' Roses, Iron Maiden, really loud, head-banging type music, but you couldn't pay me to hear contemporary music at Mass if chant is an option.

[NotreDame]

If young people heard chant and knew it was an option, they'd go for it. But nobody gives it as an option, and nobody uses it. People can't claim teens prefer worship music if they aren't given the option of chant. I love worship music, I love classic rock like Aerosmith, Guns N' Roses, Iron Maiden, really loud, head-banging type music, but you couldn't pay me to hear contemporary music at Mass if chant is an option.

 

Well, perhaps each of us will have the opportunity to change that in the future and make traditional music an option.  Not everyone will like it though.  I think some are idealogically opposed to anything traditional and then you have the baby boomer generation that dislikes it because they are wholly unfamiliar with it, but they are getting on in years.

Edited November 28, 2013 by NotreDame

[dells_of_bittersweet]

Where has Matt Maher ever claimed he wrote his songs to be sung in Mass? Matt Maher was at NCYC, but not one of his songs was played during Mass, and he didn't even sing at Mass. I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply curious if he himself said it was to be done at Mass, or if this is your own assumption about his music. In my experience, worship music is more for praying at youth groups together, and sometimes even when youth groups are at adoration, but not Mass. I've never heard a Matt Maher song at Mass before, or one like it.

 

Hmmm. Matt Maher is very ecumenical, so he doesn't write music that is only for use at Mass. He writes music that helps people worship, regardless of where it is used. NCYC probably didnt play his music because the people running it are ideologically committed to music from the 60-80s that fits their pet theologies and they somehow still think is current (the likes of Dan Schutte and Jessi Manibusan) (Was Jessi Manibusan your MC? If so I got the impression that he was, well, abusive). 

 

So, Matt Maher doesn't come out and say, "please play this song at Mass." Here is an interview with him where he talks about playing at Mass: http://copiousnotes.bloginky.com/2012/02/10/matt-maher-man-of-mystery/ Before he started selling so well, his full time job was being the music director at a Catholic Church and he made records on the side. 

 

Also, if you go to worshiptogether.com and look up any of the songs Matt Maher has written, they usually have a video of him explaining how to simplify the song so you can play it at church. Furthermore, SpiritandSong.com (a division of Oregon Catholic Press) is marketing many of his songs for use at Mass. http://www.spiritandsong.com/products/30101015

 

I've played his music at mass. Like he talks about in that interview, there is a right and wrong way to do it. It is very easy to draw attention to yourself with that style.

 

And I must add, I fully believe the Church's teaching that chant should have the pride of place. We need more chant. If I were the music director at my church we would definitely start teaching the church some sung propers, chant psalm tones, and chant mass parts. I would play a variety of styles because I believe that modern church music, when done well, represents legitimate inculturation, taking what is good in our culture and transforming it into something holy. Nevertheless, I would still use chant frequently and would allow chant to inform how other styles of music are played (such as, regardless of the style, focusing on the human voice and choosing simple singable melodies).  

 

I will say, Matt Maher is trying to do multiple things at once. A lot of the stuff he writes is just for entertainment purposes to help him make money. I.e., Turn Around, is a crossover country song with too much electric guitar and not enough lyrical depth to be used in church. 

[PhuturePriest]

Hmmm. Matt Maher is very ecumenical, so he doesn't write music that is only for use at Mass. He writes music that helps people worship, regardless of where it is used. NCYC probably didnt play his music because the people running it are ideologically committed to music from the 60-80s that fits their pet theologies and they somehow still think is current (the likes of Dan Schutte and Jessi Manibusan) (Was Jessi Manibusan your MC? If so I got the impression that he was, well, abusive). 

 

So, Matt Maher doesn't come out and say, "please play this song at Mass." Here is an interview with him where he talks about playing at Mass: http://copiousnotes.bloginky.com/2012/02/10/matt-maher-man-of-mystery/ Before he started selling so well, his full time job was being the music director at a Catholic Church and he made records on the side. 

 

Also, if you go to worshiptogether.com and look up any of the songs Matt Maher has written, they usually have a video of him explaining how to simplify the song so you can play it at church. Furthermore, SpiritandSong.com (a division of Oregon Catholic Press) is marketing many of his songs for use at Mass. http://www.spiritandsong.com/products/30101015

 

I've played his music at mass. Like he talks about in that interview, there is a right and wrong way to do it. It is very easy to draw attention to yourself with that style.

 

And I must add, I fully believe the Church's teaching that chant should have the pride of place. We need more chant. If I were the music director at my church we would definitely start teaching the church some sung propers, chant psalm tones, and chant mass parts. I would play a variety of styles because I believe that modern church music, when done well, represents legitimate inculturation, taking what is good in our culture and transforming it into something holy. Nevertheless, I would still use chant frequently and would allow chant to inform how other styles of music are played (such as, regardless of the style, focusing on the human voice and choosing simple singable melodies).  

 

I will say, Matt Maher is trying to do multiple things at once. A lot of the stuff he writes is just for entertainment purposes to help him make money. I.e., Turn Around, is a crossover country song with too much electric guitar and not enough lyrical depth to be used in church. 

 

Yes, unfortunately, he was the emcee, and he was quite... interesting in his thoughts on the matter of theology.

 

That's very interesting. I'm very conflicted on the topic of worship music at Mass. My gut reaction is to say "Chant is what's proper.", but at the same time, I haven't read anything official saying that only chant should be done and worship music is frowned upon.

 

However, I would take a Matt Maher song over "Signed Sealed Delivered", which is what was played at the Mass at NCYC.

[Nihil Obstat]

I had the misfortune of attending a conference MCed by Jessi Manibusan. :(

He played the old "the miracle of the feeding of the 5000 was actually just Jesus teaching people how to share" card.

[dells_of_bittersweet]

My guess is that most younger people do feel the same way and if they don't they'd change their mind if they knew that traditional/latin/chant were an option.  I don't think teens go to church to get modern society reflected back at them or to get something that's indistinguishable from a protestant service.  They want something that's timeless and set apart from the world. 

 

There is a way to play worship music to give it the same sense of mystery and timelessness that chant has and still have the benefit of being in 4/4 time, which is what our culture expects (and I don't think that cultural expectations are evil or are a problem-culture is something good that develops out of the creativity God naturally gave us). 

 

Here is an example: http://www.worshiptogether.com/songs/songdetail.aspx?iid=563799 Its a song called Facedown by Matt Redman. The teens and college students I minister to love this song. 

 

I do not believe that worship music is an example of reflecting culture back at people. Good worship music should sound very different from the top 40 radio station. It should sound holy and set aside for God, just as we desire chant to be (dig around worshiptogether.com to see examples of how this is done). Worship music is, however, an example of transforming culture-taking from it what is good, infusing it with Catholic tradition, and molding into something that glorifies God. 

 

Latin chant works very well for people that have grown up with it, in good Catholic families. We however live in a post-Christian world where the mission field is our neighborhood in addition to foreign lands that haven't accepted Christ yet. We must evangelize always. Pope Francis talks about not being inwardly focused or self referential. I believe that by only playing songs from the past, that we would be failing to engage the culture and the people around us who understand the culture much better than they understand God. 

 

I think we need musical variety. We need to reference the rich traditions from the past, which is critical to maintaining our identity, and we also need to engage and transform the culture. 

 

In terms of indistinguishable from a Protestant service, your argument is a slippery slope. Almost everything is considered an old hymn is of Protestant origin (i.e. How Great Thou Art). A Mass with all old hymns would be just as much like a Protestant service as a bunch of worship songs would be (and possibly less, due to the fact that Matt Maher and Audrey Assad are Catholic). What would distinguish the music in either case, either the old hymns or the worship, would be the reverence with which they are played. 

 

On a slightly different note, let's frame this as a question. "What do teens really want?" As someone who works A LOT with providing music to teens and young adults, and as a college student myself, I have a reasonably good feel for this. 

 

First, there is a lot of sympathy for chant. In my diocese, chant isn't much of an option outside of the EF Mass. When I was doing Mass for a retreat I spontaneously decided to do the Angus Dei in Latin and everyone got excited. I think they want more of it. 

 

Next, teens are very much turned off by mediocrity and amateurism. Whatever music gets picked, the choir needs to be good at it. The last time I went to an EF mass, the schola was in my opinion pitifully bad. I spent the whole Mass noticing the notes they were missing. It left a bad taste in my mouth that makes me never want to listen to a schola ever again. Most teens would prefer to have really well done music from the 70s than a bad to average schola or organist who plays old hymns. Bottom line-being good at what you do is a lot more important than what you choose to do in the first place. 

 

Finally, you seem to be writing off the possibility that teens might really like worship music. They do! Everyone I know absolutely loves it and wants more of it. At a recent retreat I played all old hymns on the Friday Mass, and all worship music on the Saturday Mass. While both were well received, people clearly liked the worship music better than the old hymns. 

 

From personal experience, chant is an option, but I avoid it since its badly done in my diocese. I occasionally go to another church that plays worship music, instead of my own, which still does a lot of 70s stuff. I would really like to see chant done well and mixed into the liturgy. I would really not like to see chant be the only thing that is used. Just my personal opinion, but I think our society is too accustomed with music that has a beat for chant and chant alone to ever be the right way to go. I think music styles that mimic chant but that stay in 4/4 time, such as Taize or a handful of slower worship songs, are a good compromise.  

[dells_of_bittersweet]

I had the misfortune of attending a conference MCed by Jessi Manibusan. :(

He played the old "the miracle of the feeding of the 5000 was actually just Jesus teaching people how to share" card.

 

You've been Manibused. 

 

This is part of why I hate Oregon Catholic Press so much. They don't have the guts to get rid of the liberals whose music they still manage to sell like hot cakes. 

[NotreDame]

Yes, unfortunately, he was the emcee, and he was quite... interesting in his thoughts on the matter of theology.

 

That's very interesting. I'm very conflicted on the topic of worship music at Mass. My gut reaction is to say "Chant is what's proper.", but at the same time, I haven't read anything official saying that only chant should be done and worship music is frowned upon.

 

However, I would take a Matt Maher song over "Signed Sealed Delivered", which is what was played at the Mass at NCYC.

 

From what I can tell the church teaches that chant is the preferred method for mass... but nobody does it:

 

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/music_and_instruments.htm

 

To me this is like where eucharistic ministers were allowed in cases of need, but now they are sometimes the only ones distributing communion.  Altar girls are another example of this: an exception in case of need, become the norm.

 

Not an expert here, but I think if masses were done according to what the church teaches is the preferred method, they'd all be quite traditional.  What happens is that people take advantage of all the loopholes until loopholes become the norm. 

 

On a separate note... I don't know why someone at a catholic event would think Signed, Sealed, Delivered is appropriate for mass.  That's very sad and dissapointing.