Wal-mart Defends Controversial Food Drive For Employees

[Brother Adam]

Having a profit into the "billions" would be difficult not to do when you are a juggernaut like Walmart and their margins are still razor thin, like any retailer that survives more than 5 years. It's what they do with the profit into the billions. You can adopt wage models like they have, or you can pay like Costco does.

[NotreDame]

Walmart gives thousands of poor people entry level jobs and it gives millions of poor people the lowest prices and basic household items. 

 

It's fair to say that no company does more to help the poor than Walmart, yet they are constantly demonized.  Why?  Well there's a very, very simple explanation for that.

[NotreDame]

Having a profit into the "billions" would be difficult not to do when you are a juggernaut like Walmart and their margins are still razor thin, like any retailer that survives more than 5 years. It's what they do with the profit into the billions. You can adopt wage models like they have, or you can pay like Costco does.

 

Comparing walmart's wages to costco is a very apples to oranges comparison:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-never-pay-like-costco.html

[KnightofChrist]

I think the point many people miss is that as Catholics we are expected under pain of sin to have a fundamental option for the poor. We do not have a right to unlimited profit just because we can find undereducated people who will work for a wage that nobody can live on. That people will allow themselves to be treated this badly (as Blazingstar implies by saying that these people are unwilling to better themselves) does not mean that we should take advantage of that.
 
Walmart has profits into the billions. They have no excuse for this kind of behavior, no matter what their employees are actually like.

I've not forgotten that fundamental principle. But employees cannot often live on many Walmart jobs because the service the employees provide are not equal to the amount of pay someone would need to live on. 'You get what you paid for', or in this case one is paid for the amount of work one provided.

Walmart or any business has a moral duty to pay their employees what they have earned, what they deserve, but employees have a moral duty to accept the pay they deserve and they may not be able to justly ask for more pay than the service they provide.

If Walmart is depriving individuals of the pay they deserve then that is wicked and evil, and should be condemned. But what I think is often forgot in these debate is whether or not a fair paying job is a job one can live on. In many low-skill low education requirement type of job cases the job will not be a job one can really live on without help from others. Edited November 19, 2013 by KnightofChrist

[arfink]

I've not forgotten that fundamental principle. But employees cannot often live on many Walmart jobs because the service the employees provide are not equal to the amount of pay someone would need to live on. 'You get what you paid for', or in this case one is paid for the amount of work one provided.

Walmart or any business has a moral duty to pay their employees what they have earned, what they deserve, but employees have a moral duty to accept the pay they deserve and they may not be able to justly ask for more pay than the service they provide.

If Walmart is depriving individuals of the pay they deserve then that is wicked and evil, and should be condemned. But what I think is often forgot in these debate is whether or not a fair paying job is a job one can live on. In many low-skill low education requirement type of job cases the job will not be a job one can really live on without help from others.

 

And yet the example of Christ gives us this: Matthew 20.

[KnightofChrist]

And yet the example of Christ gives us this: Matthew 20.

Everyone should be paid equally no matter the job or how long they've worked on the job? Should I get paid the same to cut the neighbor's grass that my heart surgeon got paid to preform surgery?

I don't believe our Lord is really saying everyone should be paid the same for different amounts of earthly work. This is passage is about the rewards that await us in the kingdom of Heaven. Those that love and serve the Lord the whole of their life will get the same reward as those that only repented towards the end of their life or later in life. Edited November 19, 2013 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

The Parable of the Talents

(Luke 19:11-27)

14For even as a man going into a far country, called his servants, and delivered to them his goods; 15And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey. 16And he that had received the five talents, went his way, and traded with the same, and gained other five. 17And in like manner he that had received the two, gained other two. 18But he that had received the one, going his way digged into the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19But after a long time the lord of those servants came, and reckoned with them. 20And he that had received the five talents coming, brought other five talents, saying: Lord, thou didst deliver to me five talents, behold I have gained other five over and above. 21His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22And he also that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, thou deliveredst two talents to me: behold I have gained other two. 23His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24But he that had received the one talent, came and said: Lord, I know that thou art a hard man; thou reapest where thou hast not sown, and gatherest where thou hast not strewed. 25And being afraid I went and hid thy talent in the earth: behold here thou hast that which is thine.

26And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed: 27Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. 28Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents.

29For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Edited November 19, 2013 by KnightofChrist

[CrossCuT]

Or, if they want kids they can find a job that pays more.  Or they can work more.  You don't need to work "a million jobs" but you may have to work 50-60 hours.  Considering that many retail jobs managers are salaray and earn $15 an hour on paper but work 60-70 hours, I don't see why the hourly workers who are only there limited hours deserve to essentially earn more than them.

 

Walmart is not "relying on the public".  It hires handicapped greeters who probably are on public assistance which is fine, but the onus for fully capable employees to make more is on the employees, not walmart.

 

As far as the donation bins...companies do this ALL THE TIME. Big companies, little companies.  People take up collections around the office when someone's house burns down or to help a new mom.  This is not something new.

 

So you think that working at wal mart means they wouldnt be able to afford kids unless you had multiple jobs? Or just find a better job? Sometimes thats not a possibility or its very difficult.

I feel like that would be a hard environment for the parent to work so much and raise a family.

 

Again youre proving my point that its an inhumane wage. And let me reiterate the fact I am not suggesting they get paid the same amount as a doctor...only enough to afford the same human basics as the rest of us

The basics.

Being able to support a family while working 80 hrs/week shouldnt be a norm for the "uneducated" or those who "just dont work hard enough" or even those with disabilities. 

 

Also, Im sure managers do get paid that much but they arent the only ones who work at Wal mart. Not all wal mart workers are managers...there are stock boys, cashiers etc. They wont be getting paid $15/hr.

 

[CrossCuT]

The Parable of the Talents

(Luke 19:11-27)

14For even as a man going into a far country, called his servants, and delivered to them his goods; 15And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey. 16And he that had received the five talents, went his way, and traded with the same, and gained other five. 17And in like manner he that had received the two, gained other two. 18But he that had received the one, going his way digged into the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19But after a long time the lord of those servants came, and reckoned with them. 20And he that had received the five talents coming, brought other five talents, saying: Lord, thou didst deliver to me five talents, behold I have gained other five over and above. 21His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22And he also that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, thou deliveredst two talents to me: behold I have gained other two. 23His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24But he that had received the one talent, came and said: Lord, I know that thou art a hard man; thou reapest where thou hast not sown, and gatherest where thou hast not strewed. 25And being afraid I went and hid thy talent in the earth: behold here thou hast that which is thine.

26And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed: 27Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. 28Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents.

29For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

I bolded the statement I wanted to address...and youre still missing the point. I dont think anyone in here is saying that we should pay a lawn mower the same as a surgeon; thats just silly. We are saying that the minimum pay should be enough for them to LIVE off. There is a big difference.

 

And it really shocks me that we would use the Bible to justify unfair wage. Really? Is this where Christianity is going?

 

 

Also, are you suggesting (based on the vereses you have above) that people who work at wal mart are wasting their talents? Assuming no one at walmart is trying to pay for their education, family, or whatever else? Thats a very large and horrible assumption.

 

Im pretty sure it mentions that we should help the poor about 3000 billion times in the bible. 

[KnightofChrist]

I bolded the statement I wanted to address...and youre still missing the point. I dont think anyone in here is saying that we should pay a lawn mower the same as a surgeon; thats just silly. We are saying that the minimum pay should be enough for them to LIVE off. There is a big difference.

 

1) And it really shocks me that we would use the Bible to justify unfair wage. Really? Is this where Christianity is going?

 

 

2) Also, are you suggesting (based on the vereses you have above) that people who work at wal mart are wasting their talents? 3) Assuming no one at walmart is trying to pay for their education, family, or whatever else? Thats a very large and horrible assumption.

 

Im pretty sure it mentions that we should help the poor about 3000 billion times in the bible. 

 

I didn't know what point Afrink was trying to convey because he just posted a link to that particular  passage without explaining the purpose behind doing so. I did attempt to do so in the previous post I had made before posting the The Parable of the Talents. That we are paid justly when our pay is equal to that of the service we provide for the employer.

 

What doesn't shock me is that you have yet again twisted something I said into something I did not say. The answers to all 3 questions is, no.

 

1) No, not really, that is a stawman, unjust wages is depriving the worker of what is rightly his, and that is wicked and unjust.

 

2) No, they are not wasting their talents simply by working at Walmart. They should be paid what they deserve based on the work they provide, but the pay they deserve for the work they provide may not be enough to live on.

 

3) Another strawman, I never assumed any such thing. Many students work at Walmart to help pay for school, and many others work there to help pay for other things. The trouble that I have is the reality that some jobs like Walmart jobs are never going to be the kind of jobs that one can really live on.

 

I agree that there should be a minimum wage, but there are always going to be jobs that people cannot live on and depend on as a form of livelihood.

[beatitude]

I am a PhD candidate on a full scholarship, now able to earn some extra money through academic teaching, and while I might be better educated that WalMart employees, I just want to say that I certainly don't consider myself more highly skilled or more hardworking. They do a job that I could never do because my disabilities make it impossible, and they often work far longer hours as well. They look pretty skilled to me. Providing patient and helpful customer service after being on your feet for ten hours straight is very much a skill. I dislike this snobbishness where ability and worth are defined by educational attainment. The lack of respect begins here, not with that inhumane low wage.

 

The idea that all people living on an inhumane wage must be somehow choosing it because you or your next-door neighbour went from working in a chewing gum factory to being the CEO of the world is fallacious. I am also the first person in my family to go to university. My mother's parents worked in a shop, while my grandma on my dad's side became a housemaid at the age of fourteen. Her husband-to-be was a farmhand. Both my parents grew up with very little, especially my dad. People love to read stories about kids who were born into difficult situations growing up and doing well for themselves, but it's wrong to treat these stories as descriptive of what millions of people could do if only they just put their minds to it, for the simple reason that it ignores the luck involved (I am where I am because I had teachers who believed I was worth teaching and who were prepared to fight for my right to a mainstream education - not everyone in my position has that) and the simple fact that someone has to sweep the floor in Wal-Mart. There will always be a demand for that work; we should be grateful for the people who do it and ask that they be paid a living wage instead of expecting them to make ends meet through the unpredictable and fluctuating charity of people on the street (many of whom view them as lazy and lacking in aspiration, and are therefore probably not going to be overly generous).

[NotreDame]

Im pretty sure it mentions that we should help the poor about 3000 billion times in the bible. 

 

Yes, it says that we should help the poor.  Not that we should run around telling other people to help the poor.  Being generous with other people's money isn't charity and in many cases it's theft. 

 

[CrossCuT]

I am a PhD candidate on a full scholarship, now able to earn some extra money through academic teaching, and while I might be better educated that WalMart employees, I just want to say that I certainly don't consider myself more highly skilled or more hardworking. They do a job that I could never do because my disabilities make it impossible, and they often work far longer hours as well. They look pretty skilled to me. Providing patient and helpful customer service after being on your feet for ten hours straight is very much a skill. I dislike this snobbishness where ability and worth are defined by educational attainment. The lack of respect begins here, not with that inhumane low wage.

 

The idea that all people living on an inhumane wage must be somehow choosing it because you or your next-door neighbour went from working in a chewing gum factory to being the CEO of the world is fallacious. I am also the first person in my family to go to university. My mother's parents worked in a shop, while my grandma on my dad's side became a housemaid at the age of fourteen. Her husband-to-be was a farmhand. Both my parents grew up with very little, especially my dad. People love to read stories about kids who were born into difficult situations growing up and doing well for themselves, but it's wrong to treat these stories as descriptive of what millions of people could do if only they just put their minds to it, for the simple reason that it ignores the luck involved (I am where I am because I had teachers who believed I was worth teaching and who were prepared to fight for my right to a mainstream education - not everyone in my position has that) and the simple fact that someone has to sweep the floor in Wal-Mart. There will always be a demand for that work; we should be grateful for the people who do it and ask that they be paid a living wage instead of expecting them to make ends meet through the unpredictable and fluctuating charity of people on the street (many of whom view them as lazy and lacking in aspiration, and are therefore probably not going to be overly generous).

 

Amen. Props so many times.

[CrossCuT]

Yes, it says that we should help the poor.  Not that we should run around telling other people to help the poor.  Being generous with other people's money isn't charity and in many cases it's theft. 

 

I do quite a few things to help the underserved and poor...but I dont make enough to write them checks. What do you do?

 

If I was Wal Mart Id totes pay them better. 

 

Any other questions?

[CrossCuT]

I agree that there should be a minimum wage, but there are always going to be jobs that people cannot live on and depend on as a form of livelihood.

 

I believe that the minimum wage for the undesirable jobs like wal mart (where the uneducated, handicapped, and "non-common sense" people work) should be enough to pay for basic needs.

 

I guess thats where we differ.