Serene Desolation.

[brandelynmarie]

I think, as BT has said, the language can be tricky/curly. When I speak of serenity or peace in my soul during the incredibly painful moments of my life, I am not speaking of consolations, but of an awareness of Him suffering with me....of "the peace that passeth all understanding"...in the midst of my grief, my sorrow, my pain. I think the serenity comes from surrendering....an acceptance of a situation or an experience or an outcome & trusting He is there.....I'm probably being redundant....& goodness, it is still difficult to go through, let alone explain :blush:

[BarbTherese]

I think I might have been barking up the wrong tree.................

 

Are you asking, SIA, specifically about discerning one's vocation and serene desolation in relation to that?

I would be thinking spiritual direction in that case. 

Serene desolation itself sounds like something I would like to achieve. At times I've felt something like it, but it would be ideal to experience it in its fullness. 

 

I tend to think that no amount of human effort or spiritual 'exercising' can achieve serenity per se, it is God's free gift to whomsoever He may.  Certainly we can 'exercise' spiritually in the hope of the gift and desire for it, but no guarantees attached.  Motivation comes into play.  Do I desire the gift for my own consolation in suffering lessening my trials? Or is it purely for God's Glory in some way.

 

Spiritual direction.

 

Good read on discerning vocation: http://www.amazon.com/Paths-Of-Love-Discernment-According/dp/1438228465

I thought it was available online, but I couldn't find it.

Edited November 21, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

 

 

Good read on discerning vocation: http://www.amazon.com/Paths-Of-Love-Discernment-According/dp/1438228465

I thought it was available online, but I couldn't find it.

 

Here it is online: http://www.pathsoflove.com/paths-of-love-details.html

[Spem in alium]

I think, as BT has said, the language can be tricky/curly. When I speak of serenity or peace in my soul during the incredibly painful moments of my life, I am not speaking of consolations, but of an awareness of Him suffering with me....of "the peace that passeth all understanding"...in the midst of my grief, my sorrow, my pain. I think the serenity comes from surrendering....an acceptance of a situation or an experience or an outcome & trusting He is there.....I'm probably being redundant....& goodness, it is still difficult to go through, let alone explain :blush:

Again, what a beautiful response :) I had not thought about serenity in that way - as being the result of surrender rather than something that accompanies it. You're definitely not being redundant; it's a tricky one.

 

I think I might have been barking up the wrong tree.................

 

Are you asking, SIA, specifically about discerning one's vocation and serene desolation in relation to that?

I would be thinking spiritual direction in that case. 

I tend to think that no amount of human effort or spiritual 'exercising' can achieve serenity per se, it is God's free gift to whomsoever He may.  Certainly we can 'exercise' spiritually in the hope of the gift and desire for it, but no guarantees attached.  Motivation comes into play.  Do I desire the gift for my own consolation in suffering lessening my trials? Or is it purely for God's Glory in some way.

 

Spiritual direction.

 

Good read on discerning vocation: http://www.amazon.com/Paths-Of-Love-Discernment-According/dp/1438228465

I thought it was available online, but I couldn't find it.

Yes, I was asking in terms of vocational discernment :) So do you see spiritual direction as having the potential to direct a person towards experiencing serene desolation? I think I would agree to an extent. Your view on this as being a gift from God is very interesting. I would simply have assumed it would be something we could achieve on our own, but judging by what has been said here it definitely seems to be God-given! 

 

Here it is online: http://www.pathsoflove.com/paths-of-love-details.html

Thank you!

[BarbTherese]

Spiritual desolation (and consolation) can come from various causes (self including imagination and an evil spirit or they can come from God and His Permissive Will) - and I think it takes a spiritual director to discern and then how to proceed.  I think spiritual direction is vitally important where vocation is concerned and most especially if one is desolate about one's choices or about proceeding in the discernment process.  When I was in college, the nun who taught me told me that Satan would shift Heaven and earth if it could and if it could see only one inch of good about to take place - and to my mind vocation is so very much more and more again than an inch of good.  But then the desolation could be due to onself and an evil spirit - or God could have permitted the desolate state in order to bring about a greater good (Doctrine of Divine Providence)

With Jesus in the garden we see Him desolate about what He is going to suffer "But not My Will, but Thine be done" - and as He is arrested and His terrible sufferings proceed, we see Him quite serene through it all in the main.  His Father did grant Him serenity, but did not remove His Sufferings.  And His Sufferings were shocking.

 

St Ignatius had quite a lot to say about desolation and consolation http://sacred-texts.com/chr/seil/seil79.htm - but best of all seek out sound spiritual direction.  Our spiritual life and most especially where discernment is concerned is so important that one is wise and prudent (and a predisposing ourselves to God's Gifts) to seek out sound spiritual direction for our journey, especially in discernment of one's vocation in life.

 

James 1 17" [16] Do not err, therefore, my dearest brethren. [17] Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration."

 

We can certainly dispose ourselves to receive God's Gifts as discussed in previous posts, but the Gift itself can only come from God according to His Will for us.  I really recommend the book online by Josef Bolin (link in a previous post) - it was a tremendous help to me not in actually discerning my vocation but in affirming that I had indeed taken the right course re vocation in life.  And at the time, I did think it would be a really good read too for those who might be in the discernment process.

 

Keeping you in prayer, SIA.

 

Barb :)

(Josef Bolin is a Catholic priest  and Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology for the International Theological Institute. http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/about-paths-of-love/ )  I am hoping other members will come in on this thread.

Edited November 21, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[Spem in alium]

Spiritual desolation (and consolation) can come from various causes (self including imagination and an evil spirit or they can come from God and His Permissive Will) - and I think it takes a spiritual director to discern and then how to proceed.  I think spiritual direction is vitally important where vocation is concerned and most especially if one is desolate about one's choices or about proceeding in the discernment process.  When I was in college, the nun who taught me told me that Satan would shift Heaven and earth if it could and if it could see only one inch of good about to take place - and to my mind vocation is so very much more and more again than an inch of good.  But then the desolation could be due to onself and an evil spirit - or God could have permitted the desolate state in order to bring about a greater good (Doctrine of Divine Providence)

Ah, I see. I do agree with you - direction has been very useful for me in that regard.

 

With Jesus in the garden we see Him desolate about what He is going to suffer "But not My Will, but Thine be done" - and as He is arrested and His terrible sufferings proceed, we see Him quite serene through it all in the main.  His Father did grant Him serenity, but did not remove His Sufferings.  And His Sufferings were shocking.

 

Very much so. He is for the most part serene. What would you make of His saying on the cross, Eli Eli lama sabachthani? To me it does indicate great desolation and complete humanity. Do you believe there is serenity here also?

 

Thank you for your prayers. They are reciprocated :)

[BarbTherese]

Ah, I see. I do agree with you - direction has been very useful for me in that regard.

 

 

Very much so. He is for the most part serene. What would you make of His saying on the cross, Eli Eli lama sabachthani? To me it does indicate great desolation and complete humanity. Do you believe there is serenity here also?

 

Thank you for your prayers. They are reciprocated :)

 

Thank you for your prayers too :)

 

Gosh, I am flying by the seat of my pantaloons which is why I am hoping others will come in on this thread and contribute their thoughts.........even if they too are flying by their pantaloons also.  It does seem to me, however, that as I draw on my own experiences from discerning my vocation, thus many members here would have had experiences of feeling quite desolate in discernment specifically -and how they dealt with it, what it meant to them.

 

I think brandelynmarie in a previous post gave a really good description that I could identify with.  It is about surrender and an acceptance and with confident trust.  For me, this was not an event, it was a struggle and a journey to arrive at confident trust and by then probably, I was pretty sure of my vocation in life - all I needed was confirmation which was forthcoming thanks to The Lord and His Generosity. Hence my confident trust was then supported by a growing conviction, absent at the beginning of discernment when confident trust was very shaky indeed.  As St Therese said "All is Grace" - our wills cannot even move in the direction of some good without God's Grace (which is always gratuitous never earned and certainly never deserved) - and having moved in the direction of some good, we cannot effect that good without His free gift of Grace again.  "All is Grace".  Our souls are the Temple of The Holy Spirit - He is a most often a very humble and hidden, silent, worker continually with us in His many Graces.  In the goodness stakes, we are not self sufficient, we need Grace at every little turn and The Lord is Generous.  But all credit to Him and His Graces.

 

My comments onEli Eli lama sabachthani? (My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?).  This strikes me as the depths of desolation in a feeling of having been abandoned and very human cry from a very human heart - but it is also a wondrous Act of Faith.  Jesus feels totally abandoned by His Father and yet is still able to address Him directly and His Words "Into Your Hands I commend my spirit" confirms that Faith.  For me, it is not so much serenity as Faith and Faith can remain strong when serenity is absent. Abandonment probably can mean many things to different people, drawing on my own experience, it has been accompanied by temptations against Faith.   In horrific physical pain and very close to death and feeling abandoned, Jesus maintains His Relationship with His Father quite trustfully and to His actual death.........this would be the content of my continual strivings and daily hope that no matter what happens, I know in my mind and in my will that The Lord is with me all the way without fail and no matter what is stirring or pressing in the quite human part of me.  Life is a battlefield, a battlefield within the self - short of what I would think of as miraculous and a free Gift of God, or the absolute heights of mysticism. I used to wonder why in the "Hail Holy Queen" prayer was in parts such a 'downer' (to me) and we pray "mourning and weeping in this valley of tears"...........at 68yrs almost, I can now appreciate why.

 

As usual, I have used many words, when others are gifted to be concise and to the point - and since most probably are discerning religious life or the priesthood today would be able to bring more to the discussion than I can I think.

Edited November 23, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[thepiaheart]

I'm confused by the question -- what does "serene desolation" mean, potentially? If that is the question, I think the mystics, especially those dealing directly with mystical theology, can offer the most comprehensive & helpful answer; I'm guessing that this desolation could be akin to, at its apex, the passive dark nights written of by St. John of the Cross, both of the senses and of the spirit. During these nights the person feels the greatest possible dryness, darkness, and desolation (during the dark night of the spirit, even the psychological effects of death, for one is dying to herself), but these processes are a total purification, increase, and expansion of the theological virtues, which are rooted in a deeper part of our soul and which nothing disturbs, in the end, granting great serenity & total abandonment to God, the going out of oneself and to God. The process shifts the mode of operation, from the human to the divine.

 

This desolation manifests in many much smaller ways, and the effects I think must be parallel, but it is really reading about the dark nights that this became clear to me. A good spiritual director will necessarily understand the distinction between emotional/psychological and spiritual desolation, as well, and the ways in which the natural and the divine might cooperate in a person of a particular temperament in the process of purification.

 

That's what desolation is by nature -- purification, which is intrinsically linked to the fullness and purity of the virtues. Christ needed no purification, but he did need to rise up to and employ the virtues at their most pure point, that point being of complete human abandonment.

Edited November 23, 2013 by thepiaheart

[BarbTherese]

Undoubtedly those who enter probably into the passive Dark Night of The Spirit will experience absolute desolation and a mystical theology type question/discussion.  "Desolation" can mean varying things to different people in that we use the word to mean different things/our definitions vary.  I may be quite wrong but I think that this thread's subject may be about feelings of discouragement to despair about discerning either a religious vocation and/or the priesthood.  And I don't think that these types of feelings are at all unusual in a discernment journey and can have varying causes.  The question in this thread seems to be: can one endure these discouraging states in a discernment journey with tranquillity and serenity and without abandoning the discerning process? Or such I am now taking the question to be.

I think that those who are actually on a discernment journey re religious life and/or priesthood will have probably much to contribute to this subject, while it could be too 'raw' and personal to 'go public' in a discussion thread, which I can understand.  I also think that those members now in religious life and/or priesthood might have much to contribute.

 

Or I still might be barking up the wrong tree and the question posed is not about discouragement and discouraging feelings in the discernment journey - can you set us straight SIA for the sake of your thread and question posed? :)

 

[Spem in alium]

I'm confused by the question -- what does "serene desolation" mean, potentially? If that is the question, I think the mystics, especially those dealing directly with mystical theology, can offer the most comprehensive & helpful answer; I'm guessing that this desolation could be akin to, at its apex, the passive dark nights written of by St. John of the Cross, both of the senses and of the spirit. During these nights the person feels the greatest possible dryness, darkness, and desolation (during the dark night of the spirit, even the psychological effects of death, for one is dying to herself), but these processes are a total purification, increase, and expansion of the theological virtues, which are rooted in a deeper part of our soul and which nothing disturbs, in the end, granting great serenity & total abandonment to God, the going out of oneself and to God. The process shifts the mode of operation, from the human to the divine.

 

This desolation manifests in many much smaller ways, and the effects I think must be parallel, but it is really reading about the dark nights that this became clear to me. A good spiritual director will necessarily understand the distinction between emotional/psychological and spiritual desolation, as well, and the ways in which the natural and the divine might cooperate in a person of a particular temperament in the process of purification.

 

That's what desolation is by nature -- purification, which is intrinsically linked to the fullness and purity of the virtues. Christ needed no purification, but he did need to rise up to and employ the virtues at their most pure point, that point being of complete human abandonment.

 

My question was, essentially, "what is serene desolation?", and, to a lesser extent, I was also asking, "how can we achieve it?" I probably should have worded it better. The responses here have been beautiful and detailed. Thank you for your explanation also; very interesting to see purification brought in. 

 

Undoubtedly those who enter probably into the passive Dark Night of The Spirit will experience absolute desolation and a mystical theology type question/discussion.  "Desolation" can mean varying things to different people in that we use the word to mean different things/our definitions vary.  I may be quite wrong but I think that this thread's subject may be about feelings of discouragement to despair about discerning either a religious vocation and/or the priesthood.  And I don't think that these types of feelings are at all unusual in a discernment journey and can have varying causes.  The question in this thread seems to be: can one endure these discouraging states in a discernment journey with tranquillity and serenity and without abandoning the discerning process? Or such I am now taking the question to be.

I think that those who are actually on a discernment journey re religious life and/or priesthood will have probably much to contribute to this subject, while it could be too 'raw' and personal to 'go public' in a discussion thread, which I can understand.  I also think that those members now in religious life and/or priesthood might have much to contribute.

 

Or I still might be barking up the wrong tree and the question posed is not about discouragement and discouraging feelings in the discernment journey - can you set us straight SIA for the sake of your thread and question posed? :)

Thanks Barb - and in all sincerity, thank you for your commitment here. You have provided a lot of explanation for me :) My question was mainly about the definition and experience of serene desolation, but when I first came across the term it was used in relation to vocations - which is why I posted it in VS. So your responses relating to discernment have not been wrong at all, but much appreciated. :)
 

[BarbTherese]

Thank you for your very real kindness :)

[Spem in alium]

Thank you for your very real kindness :)

Not at all - you've given me much guidance :)