Serene Desolation.

[Spem in alium]

I came across this term for the first time the other day and was intrigued by it. I was told basically that it's complete surrender to the will of God.

 

Is anyone able to expand on this? 

[brandelynmarie]

My thought is that it means one is at peace even if all seems to be lost or one is deeply suffering in some way. It reminds me of Job when he said, "Even if He kills me, I will still trust in Him." And that peace would come from continually abiding in Him, from being in a real & active relationship with Him through obedience & through doing one's best in avoiding sin...from living by loving in all things. Omgoodness, this is harder to explain than I thought! :blush:

[BarbTherese]

My take - I think that one's humanity can be in a desolate state/feeling abandoned, while the spiritual part can be in Peace and tranquillity in complete trust and surrender to God's Will whatever God may permit in negative emotions and reactions.  Where we can get confused and tied in knots I think is in allowing our human emotions and feelings to dictate to our spiritual self.  Rather than our spiritual self and state remaining in Peace, tranquil and confidently trustful. and resigned to the turmoil or despondency at the level of our human nature.  Be this as it may, I think that one still ideally will strive to resolve what is happening on the human level without getting caught up in it all and overcome by it - although it can be a roller coaster and the more practise one gets, the less roller coaster.

If in the main we allow our emotional human self to dictate in the course of living, it is going to be a tremendous struggle for the spiritual self to rule.  The more we are thinking and acting from our spiritual self in our quite ordinary and everyday daily living, the stronger it will grow and come to rule over the faulted and fallen human part of us.  In the very advanced (I have read only) and a particular Gift of God, the spiritual self can come to be always in control of the quite human part of us and without any struggle at all - usually the mystics I think.
 

 

It is a curly one :)

 

 

 

[Spem in alium]

My thought is that it means one is at peace even if all seems to be lost or one is deeply suffering in some way. It reminds me of Job when he said, "Even if He kills me, I will still trust in Him." And that peace would come from continually abiding in Him, from being in a real & active relationship with Him through obedience & through doing one's best in avoiding sin...from living by loving in all things. Omgoodness, this is harder to explain than I thought! :blush:

 

Thanks for this :) It sounds like something that is difficult to achieve - and perhaps even more difficult to maintain.

 

My take - I think that one's humanity can be in a desolate state/feeling abandoned, while the spiritual part can be in Peace and tranquillity in complete trust and surrender to God's Will whatever God may permit in negative emotions and reactions.  Where we can get confused and tied in knots I think is in allowing our human emotions and feelings to dictate to our spiritual self.  Rather than our spiritual self and state remaining in Peace, tranquil and confidently trustful. and resigned to the turmoil or despondency at the level of our human nature.  Be this as it may, I think that one still ideally will strive to resolve what is happening on the human level without getting caught up in it all and overcome by it - although it can be a roller coaster and the more practise one gets, the less roller coaster.

If in the main we allow our emotional human self to dictate in the course of living, it is going to be a tremendous struggle for the spiritual self to rule.  The more we are thinking and acting from our spiritual self in our quite ordinary and everyday daily living, the stronger it will grow and come to rule over the faulted and fallen human part of us.  In the very advanced (I have read only) and a particular Gift of God, the spiritual self can come to be always in control of the quite human part of us and without any struggle at all - usually the mystics I think.
 

 

It is a curly one :)

 

Thanks for your response. Are you saying that to experience serene desolation one's emotions need to take a backseat? This seems quite reasonable to me. Feelings and personal preferences can play a huge part in our choices.

[BarbTherese]

Thanks for this :) It sounds like something that is difficult to achieve - and perhaps even more difficult to maintain.

 

 

Thanks for your response. Are you saying that to experience serene desolation one's emotions need to take a backseat? This seems quite reasonable to me. Feelings and personal preferences can play a huge part in our choices.

 

Yep, that is what I am saying.  We get endless opportunities during any day to practise putting feelings in the backseat and let our spiritual self rule.  The more practise one puts in, the easier it becomes to let our spiritual self rule over our feelings and what we may want.  We call it self discipline or mortification.  For example tonight I wanted to watch "Big Bang Theory" at dinner time (I really enjoy this program!), but I forced myself to set the table and sit at the table and eat rather than sit in front of the TV - and one can have a spiritual motivation in such very small acts of self denial - and probably the ideal to do so rather than a desire "to win" over self, although a less than ideal motivation is better than none to me..........these little things are the way our spiritual self can gradually gain mastery over our feelings and desires. Endless opportunities in quite little ways occur during each day - but the big payoff is when something major comes along and one doesn't have such a roller coaster ride to master our human nature and let our spiritual self in Peace and serenity rule.  Many of our saints not only acquired this mastery in Peace and serenity but in Joy as well.  They experienced Joy in the cross or suffering.  Some of our saints, like St Therese of Lisieux, acquired it through practise in each day in some way with just ordinary every day self discipline and mortification.  Sometimes it can be a completely gratuitious Gift that The Lord gives and most often perhaps to those on the mystical way.

 

I think it very important to have a sound grasp on the doctrine of Divine Providence and the Direct and Permissive Will of The Lord...........or it has sure helped me and was a real learning curve for me. 

 

But just my take on the subject :)

[Lil'Nun]

My initial reaction was that it was bearing aridity or the dark night of the Soul with faith and trust. Accepting and surrendering to God even in aridity.

Just my two pence worth. :)

[Spem in alium]

Yep, that is what I am saying.  We get endless opportunities during any day to practise putting feelings in the backseat and let our spiritual self rule.  The more practise one puts in, the easier it becomes to let our spiritual self rule over our feelings and what we may want.  We call it self discipline or mortification.  For example tonight I wanted to watch "Big Bang Theory" at dinner time (I really enjoy this program!), but I forced myself to set the table and sit at the table and eat rather than sit in front of the TV - and one can have a spiritual motivation in such very small acts of self denial - and probably the ideal to do so rather than a desire "to win" over self, although a less than ideal motivation is better than none to me..........these little things are the way our spiritual self can gradually gain mastery over our feelings and desires. Endless opportunities in quite little ways occur during each day - but the big payoff is when something major comes along and one doesn't have such a roller coaster ride to master our human nature and let our spiritual self in Peace and serenity rule.  Many of our saints not only acquired this mastery in Peace and serenity but in Joy as well.  They experienced Joy in the cross or suffering.  Some of our saints, like St Therese of Lisieux, acquired it through practise in each day in some way with just ordinary every day self discipline and mortification.  Sometimes it can be a completely gratuitious Gift that The Lord gives and most often perhaps to those on the mystical way.

 

I think it very important to have a sound grasp on the doctrine of Divine Providence and the Direct and Permissive Will of The Lord...........or it has sure helped me and was a real learning curve for me. 

 

But just my take on the subject :)

 

Thanks for that response, Barb. I will look at those doctrines. From what some have said about serene desolation, it does seem to me to be closely connected with God's Providence, which I suppose makes it sound a little "nicer" - to me, knowing that God is with me and guiding me makes me less afraid about the hard, "desolate" times. It doesn't eliminate all fear and hesitation, but it certainly provides comfort.

Serene desolation itself sounds like something I would like to achieve. At times I've felt something like it, but it would be ideal to experience it in its fullness. 
 

My initial reaction was that it was bearing aridity or the dark night of the Soul with faith and trust. Accepting and surrendering to God even in aridity.

Just my two pence worth. :)

Thanks for this. I believe having faith and trust even in those times requires a deep level of love. :)

[brandelynmarie]

Yes, trusting He holds you....regardless of how you feel or what is happening around you...I have honestly come to the conclusion that God allows miracles to happen or else He gives us the miracle of His grace to go through not so pleasant experiences...

When I walk through the sea,
My God will walk with me
& the rivers will not swallow me.

When I walk through the fire,
I will not be scorched nor burned,
& the flames will not harm me at all...



Isaiah 43...paraohrased

Edited November 19, 2013 by brandelynmarie

[BarbTherese]

Catholic Catechism: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p4.htm#324 "God Carries Out His Plan - Divine Providence"  Para :  302 - 313

 

Online : "Abandonment to Divine Providence"  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/decaussade/abandonment   Especially important are the letters at the rear of this work.

 

 

 

I hope, SIA, that you will find the doctrine of Divine Providence as rewarding a real learning curve as I did.   :)  Jean Pierre de Caussade SJ's work "Abandonment to Divine Providence" was my 'icing on the cake', although strangely I read this work prior to discovering what the Catholic Catechism had to say.  After reading the CCC, I then went back to "Abandonment to Divine Providence" a second time - more 'in the loop' and confident that JPdC just might know what he was talking about.  Both the autobiography of St Therese and also Brother Lawrence's "Practise of the Presence of God" too then fell more and more into place for me.  Both the autob. of St Therese "Story of a Soul" and "Practise of The Presence of God" are online at CCEL.

 

 

Story of a Soul http://www.ccel.org/ccel/therese/autobio.html

Practise of The Presence of God  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/lawrence/practice

 

 

Some, I have read, can get lost in the language the above authors use.  I think it is necessary to strive to discern what all our classical spiritual writers are saying, including our mystics, in our vernacular language - the underlying dynamic, I think it is called, in what they have to state.

 

 

Barb :)

 

[BarbTherese]

Thanks for this. I believe having faith and trust even in those times requires a deep level of love. :)

 

 I think this is very true personally; however in the process (both Dark Nights of St J of The Cross) one's concepts and ideas about what Faith and trust, Love, are really all about are challenged and undergo radical change.  And it's a process, a journey, not an event or something that 'click' just falls into place - short of a near miracle and gratuitous Gift of The Lord.  Another good read, although not online to my knowledge, is "Theology and Sanity" (Frank Sheed).  I'm reading it again for what surely must be the third or fourth time as in places only it is no easy read - I read a small section then put it down and turn to something else to allow what was written in that section be reflected upon and hopefully sink in more than it may have done on previous reads.  This book is a real worthwhile read to me.  I think understanding theology insofar as The Holy Spirit intends is very important in our spiritual journey - and obvious, I know :)    Undoubtedly right through my own illness of Bipolar Disorder is concerned, my grasp of basic Catholic theology (Dominican education) was my guide when all else seemed to have failed me.  Gone, vanished.

 

Frank Sheed and "Theology and Sanity" http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/authors/franksheed.asp

Edited November 19, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

One final comment.  Frank Sheed's "Theology for Beginners" is available online I just discovered.  I read this book in my teens and to my absolute profit.  The best of reads as a prelude to "Theology and Sanity"

 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/MAPLIF.TXT

[Spem in alium]

Yes, trusting He holds you....regardless of how you feel or what is happening around you...I have honestly come to the conclusion that God allows miracles to happen or else He gives us the miracle of His grace to go through not so pleasant experiences...

When I walk through the sea,
My God will walk with me
& the rivers will not swallow me.

When I walk through the fire,
I will not be scorched nor burned,
& the flames will not harm me at all...



Isaiah 43...paraohrased

 

Thanks for this beautiful response; always loved Isaiah 43. :) His grace is definitely a miracle. I would love to experience such a deep, unreserved trust in God, but it can be very difficult at times. 

An open question here: Do you believe a person needs to experience a level of serene desolation in order to realise their true vocation? I do think it's essential to let go of your own desires and emotions, as Barb has said, but am wondering what the general thought is, 
 

Catholic Catechism: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p4.htm#324 "God Carries Out His Plan - Divine Providence"  Para :  302 - 313

 

Online : "Abandonment to Divine Providence"  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/decaussade/abandonment   Especially important are the letters at the rear of this work.

 

 

 

I hope, SIA, that you will find the doctrine of Divine Providence as rewarding a real learning curve as I did.   :)  Jean Pierre de Caussade SJ's work "Abandonment to Divine Providence" was my 'icing on the cake', although strangely I read this work prior to discovering what the Catholic Catechism had to say.  After reading the CCC, I then went back to "Abandonment to Divine Providence" a second time - more 'in the loop' and confident that JPdC just might know what he was talking about.  Both the autobiography of St Therese and also Brother Lawrence's "Practise of the Presence of God" too then fell more and more into place for me.  Both the autob. of St Therese "Story of a Soul" and "Practise of The Presence of God" are online at CCEL.

 

 

Story of a Soul http://www.ccel.org/ccel/therese/autobio.html

Practise of The Presence of God  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/lawrence/practice

 

 

Some, I have read, can get lost in the language the above authors use.  I think it is necessary to strive to discern what all our classical spiritual writers are saying, including our mystics, in our vernacular language - the underlying dynamic, I think it is called, in what they have to state.

 

 

Barb :)

 

Thanks Barb. I did read Story of a Soul a couple of years ago and liked it a lot...and would you believe that I was in a religious shop yesterday and came across the de Caussade book you mentioned!? It sounded brilliant and I would have bought it, but sadly did not have enough money with me. I'll check out the online versions. 
 

 I think this is very true personally; however in the process (both Dark Nights of St J of The Cross) one's concepts and ideas about what Faith and trust, Love, are really all about are challenged and undergo radical change.  And it's a process, a journey, not an event or something that 'click' just falls into place - short of a near miracle and gratuitous Gift of The Lord.  Another good read, although not online to my knowledge, is "Theology and Sanity" (Frank Sheed).  I'm reading it again for what surely must be the third or fourth time as in places only it is no easy read - I read a small section then put it down and turn to something else to allow what was written in that section be reflected upon and hopefully sink in more than it may have done on previous reads.  This book is a real worthwhile read to me.  I think understanding theology insofar as The Holy Spirit intends is very important in our spiritual journey - and obvious, I know :)    Undoubtedly right through my own illness of Bipolar Disorder is concerned, my grasp of basic Catholic theology (Dominican education) was my guide when all else seemed to have failed me.  Gone, vanished.

 

Frank Sheed and "Theology and Sanity" http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/authors/franksheed.asp

 

One final comment.  Frank Sheed's "Theology for Beginners" is available online I just discovered.  I read this book in my teens and to my absolute profit.  The best of reads as a prelude to "Theology and Sanity"

 

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/MAPLIF.TXT

 

 

Coming to an experience of that level of love is definitely a process. I'll visit those links too :) Thanks!

[BarbTherese]

An open question here: Do you believe a person needs to experience a level of serene desolation in order to realise their true vocation?

 

 I don't think so for my part.  Serenity in suffering is a gift to whomsoever God may choose.  It is not so much, to my mind, serenity in suffering as faithfulness in suffering and far more difficult to suffer without consolation (serenity) than with it.  I think that probably Mother Teresa of Calcutta had little serenity (consolation) in suffering (on the Faith level) and this seems to be the essence of the Dark Night of The Soul (St Therese had the same - little serenity re Faith -18mnths before she died), or the 'second night' of St J of The Cross.  We can let go of our own desires and wishes and sense gratification to a certain extent in life of our own volition, but when God withdraws sense support and denies ones own desires and wishes, then it is denial indeed.  Serenity is not, to my mind, of the senses but of the will although God could gift both and many of our mystics experienced both.  But only my take - and plenty of my take in this thread. :paperbag:  It's a hobby horse of mind, understanding wherever I can the mystics and our saints in our vernacular type language (disclaimer :) ).

 

I bought long ago "Abandonment to Divine Providence" before I discovered it was online at CCEL.  But the copy I had bought at some expense did not have the Letters at the end - hence the online version was a real find for me.  If one buys a copy, best to ensure that the Letters are indeed included as they are expound the doctrine in real life situations.  I think I really only fully grasped the text when I read the letters.  But we all experience things differently.

 

Edited November 21, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Repeating Spem in Aliem's question:

 

 

"An open question here: Do you believe a person needs to experience a level of serene desolation in order to realise their true vocation?"

[Spem in alium]

 I don't think so for my part.  Serenity in suffering is a gift to whomsoever God may choose.  It is not so much, to my mind, serenity in suffering as faithfulness in suffering and far more difficult to suffer without consolation (serenity) than with it.  I think that probably Mother Teresa of Calcutta had little serenity (consolation) in suffering (on the Faith level) and this seems to be the essence of the Dark Night of The Soul (St Therese had the same - little serenity re Faith -18mnths before she died), or the 'second night' of St J of The Cross.  We can let go of our own desires and wishes and sense gratification to a certain extent in life of our own volition, but when God withdraws sense support and denies ones own desires and wishes, then it is denial indeed.  Serenity is not, to my mind, of the senses but of the will although God could gift both and many of our mystics experienced both.  But only my take - and plenty of my take in this thread. :paperbag:  It's a hobby horse of mind, understanding wherever I can the mystics and our saints in our vernacular type language (disclaimer :) ).

 

I bought long ago "Abandonment to Divine Providence" before I discovered it was online at CCEL.  But the copy I had bought at some expense did not have the Letters at the end - hence the online version was a real find for me.  If one buys a copy, best to ensure that the Letters are indeed included as they are expound the doctrine in real life situations.  I think I really only fully grasped the text when I read the letters.  But we all experience things differently.

Thanks for your response and for all your contributions here.

My views on the subject are mixed. I do believe that in order for a person to discover their true state in life, desires and wishes must be in a sense surrendered to God, with the faith that God will guide them and reveal His providence. Yet I do not believe that such a process can really be considered "serene". It's generally very difficult to let go of natural desires, especially if the future is unclear; which, I find, it generally is in the early stages of discernment. It's also, at times, very difficult to be open and completely trusting in God, which is something I think "serene desolation" requires. 
 

Desolation, in its true sense, can be quite a frightening concept, but this isn't to say that desolation can never be considered serene. I also wonder if it's possible to look to Christ's Passion here. He openly surrendered to His Father in the Garden, yet it was evidently a challenging moment for him. And on the cross, He expressed abandonment. I'm not quite sure what to make of these instances, but they seem very desolate to me.