Woman Cardinals.

[mortify ii]

The glories of posting on a cellphone...lol

[Era Might]

Interesting thoughts poured out, however there is one notable drawback, the Church is not a democracy. It's not ruled by popular represented but through a Monarchy. The church operates top down and not vice versa, and so Im not sure how useful having lay, female, or other religions represented does use for the church. I just fail to see the need for introducing such a change, and with the inquiries into certain nuns and monasteries I'm really not sure it wouldn't just cause more trouble.

 

Regardless of how power is structured, any type of power structure needs advisory structures. The laity is not a mass of illiterate serfs anymore...eventually, there is probably going to be some development of new structures to allow for that fact. And there is ancient precedence for democratic structures in the church...the bureaucratic model is not the only one, though, granted, merely adding lay representation doesn't necessarily imply that the bureaucratic model is being abolished.

 

Do cardinals speak "for the church" or for other Catholic men? No, they speak for themselves as men who are valued for their advisory role to the Pope. The addition of women, or laity, in some kind of advisory structure, would be the same thing.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Era Might

[CrossCuT]

Waiting for the right time means it won't happen. There will always be people who aren't ready. My question is then, what needs to occur for it to be the right time?

[Basilisa Marie]

Waiting for the right time means it won't happen. There will always be people who aren't ready. My question is then, what needs to occur for it to be the right time?

 

For me, it'd be all about the right person. Whether or not it would be done rightly or wrongly hinges entirely on that.  Would people have left the Church in a confused uproar if someone like Mother Theresa had been created a cardinal? I doubt it, especially when people like to circulate the apocryphal story that JPII offered her the red hat and she turned it down.  

I also like Era's point about possibly creating a new structure, a new lay advisory committee filled with holy and educated men and women to help advise the pope. That might be a way of getting many of the benefits of a female cardinal without the associated baggage.  

[Lilllabettt]

Benedict XVI could have done it, maybe.* Only Nixon can go to China, etc.

 

 

*ETA: But no. Even though he was a stability figure in the long view he reigned in a time of relative chaos and upheaval in church structure and discipline.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2013 by Lilllabettt

[add]

the Pope has no power to ordain women because it is simply not possible to confer holy orders upon them. (CCC 1577).

 

 this is not  a sleight to women-the Church is not misogynistic. To the contrary, the late Pope John Paul II in a 1988 apostolic letter entitled On the Dignity of Women sets forth a profoundly beautiful exposition on the unique and irreplaceable role of women and issues a call for a new and true feminism.

 

feminism or as my dear grandmother called it Womanhood.

 

This is why Mary is always pointed to as the greatest example of the absolutely indispensable role of women in the plan of salvation and the ongoing work of the Church. When God chose to come among us, he chose a woman.

Edited November 10, 2013 by add

[Maggyie]

the Pope has no power to ordain women because it is simply not possible to confer holy orders upon them. (CCC 1577).

 

 this is not  a sleight to women-the Church is not misogynistic. To the contrary, the late Pope John Paul II in a 1988 apostolic letter entitled On the Dignity of Women sets forth a profoundly beautiful exposition on the unique and irreplaceable role of women and issues a call for a new and true feminism.

 

feminism or as my dear grandmother called it Womanhood.

 

This is why Mary is always pointed to as the greatest example of the absolutely indispensable role of women in the plan of salvation and the ongoing work of the Church. When God chose to come among us, he chose a woman.

 

Yes, I don't think anyone on the thread would disagree, the Church has no power to ordain women. But what does that have to do with women Cardinals?

[add]

The pope does have the authority to appoint women as cardinals. Cardinal is not a unique rank of Holy Orders. Rather, it denotes a role of service in the Church which is hypothetically open to the lay faithful, including women. The practice has been for sometime to select cardinals from among the Order of Bishops.

 

Cardinals have been chosen from among the Order of Bishops for a very long time and it will not change according to the reports out of the Vatican.

[An Historian]

why is it AN historian? Do you not pronounce the voiceless glottal fricative?

 

Because I do not speak American English and no I do not pronounce the 'h'.

[An Historian]

The pope does have the authority to appoint women as cardinals. Cardinal is not a unique rank of Holy Orders. Rather, it denotes a role of service in the Church which is hypothetically open to the lay faithful, including women. The practice has been for sometime to select cardinals from among the Order of Bishops.

 

Cardinals have been chosen from among the Order of Bishops for a very long time and it will not change according to the reports out of the Vatican.

 

I am not sure that it is theoretically possible.  Every single cardinal in Church history has been a member of the clergy, whether in minor or major orders.  And women cannot be ordained to either the minor or the major orders.

[mortify ii]

Regardless of how power is structured, any type of power structure needs advisory structures. The laity is not a mass of illiterate serfs anymore...eventually, there is probably going to be some development of new structures to allow for that fact. And there is ancient precedence for democratic structures in the church...the bureaucratic model is not the only one, though, granted, merely adding lay representation doesn't necessarily imply that the bureaucratic model is being abolished.

 

Do cardinals speak "for the church" or for other Catholic men? No, they speak for themselves as men who are valued for their advisory role to the Pope. The addition of women, or laity, in some kind of advisory structure, would be the same thing.

 

Era, I would agree with you in general if we were talking about a secular institution but the Church is a spiritual society that is by Divine institution a monarchy. Sole authority rests in the Pope as Vicar of Christ, he may deem it prudent to appoint lay men and women as Cardinals, or he may scrap the entire cardinalate electoral process and simply appoint his successor as St Peter did. How our Shepherd chooses to take care of his flock is totally up to him, and there is nothing necessarily wrong with outside assistance or advise. I will say so that that such advisory committee's already exist in local parishes where lay men and women participate. I can't speak for the whole Church, however let's just say having lay contribution didn't drive droves of parishioners into soup kitchens or create stellar CCD classes, in fact it seems to be the exact opposite. Being that most really don't practice the faith, nurture the poor, or believe in the fundamentals, I'm really not sure opening everything to a popular vote would be the most prudent move, in fact in such a case restricting it to the pious few would be more reasonable.

[Nihil Obstat]

Nobody ever responded to my post. :sad2:

[add]

MULIERIS DIGNITATEM

DIGNITY AND VOCATION OF WOMEN

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

[Basilisa Marie]

MULIERIS DIGNITATEM

DIGNITY AND VOCATION OF WOMEN

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

 

That's nice, but it's just a starting point. 

[Semper Catholic]

MULIERIS DIGNITATEM

DIGNITY AND VOCATION OF WOMEN

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

Ya know all those promises Obama makes every election? yeah that's worth about the same.