Discernment As A Plague

[TheresaThoma]

I find it interesting that so many articles are being written on this topic right now. My 2 cents on this that discerners are now faced with information paralysis. There is so much information available on the internet and it is so easy to travel all over the world that distance and actual contact become less important. Whereas in previous generations one had limited means to travel and communicate so one had few options available  as far as communities to discern with.

I think the most important thing to remember when reading the article is the time frames. He isn't saying the first time that one thinks of becoming a priest or sister they should apply to a seminary but if the idea has stuck around for years then it is time to try it out. On a retreat I was on there was a talk about courtship. One of the suggestions they said was when you start courting to set a time frame (8 months or even a year) and commit to making a decision at the end of that time. I think the same can be said for discernment of religious life. Once you start seriously considering a community give yourself some "deadlines". This might vary based on how often you can visit them and such but if you have actual dates to evaluate where you are and then make a decision it forces you to make a decision rather than just continuing to "discern".

[AccountDeleted]

I find it interesting that so many articles are being written on this topic right now. My 2 cents on this that discerners are now faced with information paralysis. There is so much information available on the internet and it is so easy to travel all over the world that distance and actual contact become less important. Whereas in previous generations one had limited means to travel and communicate so one had few options available  as far as communities to discern with.

I think the most important thing to remember when reading the article is the time frames. He isn't saying the first time that one thinks of becoming a priest or sister they should apply to a seminary but if the idea has stuck around for years then it is time to try it out. On a retreat I was on there was a talk about courtship. One of the suggestions they said was when you start courting to set a time frame (8 months or even a year) and commit to making a decision at the end of that time. I think the same can be said for discernment of religious life. Once you start seriously considering a community give yourself some "deadlines". This might vary based on how often you can visit them and such but if you have actual dates to evaluate where you are and then make a decision it forces you to make a decision rather than just continuing to "discern".

 

 

Good points. But then sometimes one may be discerning but they know there are obstacles to be overcome before they can actually enter. They aren't being indecisive, they just can't do anything more except discern.

[maximillion]

I so agree with you TT, if I had half the information that is available today I think it would have driven me to distraction......as it was I had limited information and made my choices after prayer and this available info. No one had internet sites and many cloistered communities were more isolated and reclusive than they are now. Had it not been for the Vocation Sisters I would not have known the community I entered even existed.

 

That MUST make it harder. I also admit to thinking on occasion that there is quite a bit of overlap in the establishment of some of the newer communities in terms of their charism and character, or there seems to be to me. That would make it much harder for me if I were discerning RL today.

 

TBH I admire all of you discerning RL or its various associated forms and can only offer my prayers for the direct input of the Holy Spirit........

[Desert Walker]

I wasn't suggesting drugs- but counseling of some kind - therapy if you can afford it. You need to shake yourself out of a victim mentality. If you attract 'energy vampires', then try doing something about that - you shouldn't be helpless if you are an adult. you have choices and free will. Focus on what gives you strength and encourages positivity in you.

 

If your family is so good - then ask them to help you get yourself sorted out. A lot of the things that happen to us are the product of our own choices. Those things that we can't control, we need to learn how to work with them or around them.

 

And stop berating yourself all the time. Negative self-talk doesn't do anyone any good unless it is somehow combined with an action plan to change unwanted behaviors! Try encouraging yourself a little more. And make your prayers ones of hope - thank God for the good things in your life and ask for His help to move forward in a positive way. Nothing is impossible for Him, but put in a little effort as well.

 

Prayers for you. :pray:

 

Most of this is because of my choices. What I don't understand is why I had to end up as a self-negater. I DO feel trapped and helpless.

 

But thank you!

[JLim92]

Nunsense is right. This article is deeply problematic for many of the same reasons.

"It’s a spirit of passivity disguised as “discernment”." - many people in general are indecisive. Some who are catholic will say they are "discerning" as an excuse to be indecisive - thought they aren't actually discerning. Discernment is anything but passive - at least according to the doctors of the Church.

However, many will genuinely try to discern, but just not have the right resources or direction. Well-formed priests are in short supply, not to mention well-formed spiritual directors. When is someone indecisive and when are they actively trying to discern, but lacking proper guidance? If they are the latter, when should, for lack of progress, they just make the jump? That's aren't easy questions to answer and young lay-people - recent converts no less - should be careful giving such strongly worded spiritual advice.

"It’s the same of discerning Priesthood or Religious Life: the actual discernment happens once you’re in the seminary (or convent)." - This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If he actually read books on the subject, he'd know how silly this sounds. Or, as to the earlier post, maybe he is just very clumsy making his point and this isn't what he means.

First of all, thank you for reading my article! Second of all, thank you for criticizing my article! There is no tone of sarcasm whatsoever there. I completely and wholeheartedly believe that conflict allows us to grow and is very healthy. I have been wanting to hear what others think and if they have any suggestions or oppositions to my thoughts.

I agree with you that discernment is anything but passive, hence I put discernment in quotation marks. The fact of the matter is that this is what discernment has become in so many young Catholic adults. I only speak from my experience of the many young Catholics I have encountered. They recognize it too, that they need to be more decisive, more bold.

There is a huge difference between indecisiveness and when they are lacking resources. As someone who's been to a number of diocese in Canada and have seen the different states of vocations I know that many lack resources. But my question is this, if we are truly passionate about our discernment for our vocation, why are we not doing our all to find these resources? Why are we not spending our time and energy to find them, if we are truly, actively discerning? This is not to excuse vocational offices that are not doing their job in providing resources to those who are discerning, but the onus is also on us to actively seek them. I've been to a number of Come & See weekends for different religious orders and had to actively seek them.

Now I do not know your age or if you have found your vocation and are living it out currently. I am not a recent convert, it has been over 7 years since I became Catholic and my spiritual journey has been, well interesting is the best word to describe it. I do not hold any authority at all and my words should not be taken as such. I'm speaking from my experience of what I've seen in young Catholic adults/teens. I wrote it for young adults because sad as it is, this is a trend among a number of FAITHFUL Catholics. I'm not talking about people who have received their sacraments and that is their sole reason for identifying themselves as Catholics. I'm talking about young adults who go to daily Mass, who are involved in their parish, who are involved in some form of outreach. The young Catholic community in Ottawa is filled with vibrant young adults who live their faith out. Yet what I stated in the article is a trend I've seen in a number of them.

I have read numerous material on the priesthood, and seminarian formation but I don't think what I've said was silly at all. Could you clarify why you think it's silly? I've heard from numerous vocational directors that the seminary is where they form good men. I know of many married Catholic men who have spent time in the seminary and they say that their time in the seminary was vital in forming them to be good men. I have numerous friends in the seminary in my home diocese, Toronto, who tell me of their formation. I firmly believe that the seminary is not only for those who have, without a doubt, a surety of their vocation to the priesthood. Maybe it wasn't articulated properly in my article but my words were to those who've been discerning for a long time about their vocation but have a reserved attitude. If they're 90% sure the priesthood or religious life is for them, would you not want them to enter the seminary or join a convent? Would you want them to live in that 10% of doubt? I want people to take a leap of faith, not be stupid about their decisions. Being impulsive is childish, but being bold and courageous are virtues. There are huge differences between the two. God calls us to step out on the water, just as He did to Peter. But we need to have faith in Him and in ourselves, or rather God's faith in us. If now is not the right time to trust in Him, when is? If we are not willing to follow His will now, when will we? Again, being rash and impulsive is not what we should do, but we should be bold enough to make the right decisions and trust that His will be done. After all, He is all powerful and can do anything even bring something good out of something bad (St. Augustine on our "Fortunate Fall" right?).

Thank you for your words. I learned a lot from seeing it in such a different point of view. Maybe it's different because I'm surrounded by so many young active Catholics (and being one myself!) and maybe the message was different because you are not a young Catholic (I really don't know your age! Correct me if I'm wrong please). Being young, we are more susceptible to being impulsive but we are also capable of being bold. All that we do is not impulsive, the radical nature of our boldness should not be mistaken as rashness. I hope you were able to see where I was coming from. But I thank you for your words and await your reply! God bless!

[NotreDame]

Thanks for your response John.  I want to reply but I'm want to make sure we aren't talking past each other first. 

 

>>> I have read numerous material on the priesthood, and seminarian formation but I don't think what I've said was silly at all. Could you clarify why you think it's silly?

 

I was pretty clear about what I thought was silly:  Where you said that actual discernment starts in the seminary.  That's pretty much a direct quote from your post.   In retrospect do you see how that is not only silly, but it isn't even logical (it presupposes one who has never been in a seminary/convent has never "actually" discerned a vocation.)  Maybe that's not what you meant, but at least by my reading that's what your words mean.  Perhaps I'm reading it wrong or perhaps you meant something different.  

 

And I agree with the entire paragraph on formation below... but formation and discernment are different things... agree?

 

>>> I've heard from numerous vocational directors that the seminary is where they form good men. I know of many married Catholic men who have spent time in the seminary and they say that their time in the seminary was vital in forming them to be good men. I have numerous friends in the seminary in my home diocese, Toronto, who tell me of their formation. I firmly believe that the seminary is not only for those who have, without a doubt, a surety of their vocation to the priesthood.

 

 

[NotreDame]

In retrospect do you see how that is not only silly, but it isn't even logical.

 

Sorry, but technically it's not illogical. I'll take that back. Poor use of the word.  It's rather a premise which, if granted, leads to some strange conclusions.
 

[JLim92]

Man! Thanks for a speedy reply!

Yes I think I should have better articulated it in my article or it was maybe too subtle. What I mean is that if the Priesthood is what you feel God is calling you to, one should join the seminary to actively discern it. It's in direct relation to the quote of my priest friend. We need to take that second step and He will redirect us or allow us to stay on that path.

It's no good for us to keep saying "oh but if I do that, then..." and stay in an infinite passivity. I guess my article presupposes that the young adults I'm talking to have discerned for a while already but have stopped themselves from taking the next step. Whether it is toward actively discerning (not just thinking about it but doing a visible action) marriage (dating), or Priesthood/Religious Life (seminary/convent). Maybe you misinterpreted it because you were not the audience that I wanted to reach out to and because I presupposed my audience to have already discerned but reached the point where they haven't taken that second step.

Yes formation and discernment are two different things, but I think the point you missed is that the seminary IS a place for discernment where formation occurs. I guess it was a confusion, because from what you wrote it sounded as if you were saying that the seminary should be for people who have discerned and are 100% sure of their vocation to the Priesthood. I guess this was an assumption on my part, the same as your assumption of my statement meaning that those who haven't entered the seminary/convent have never discerned it. Two drastic illogical extremes that I think we can both agree that it is not true. I think you and I are really on the same page with proper discernment but my message was muddled due to both my lack of articulation and presumption of my audience and you not being my target audience (I am still making this assumption because I do not know your age! I am so sorry if I am mistaken!!!)

God bless you and thank you for helping me learn how to better articulate myself!

[NotreDame]

John, let's try to flesh out what you are really saying, because your latest post is less clear to me.

 

What I think you are trying to say is:  "there is a point where someone isn't going to gain any more certainty through discernment outside of a postulancy/novitiate/seminary and they should just enter."

 

This is what you are trying to say, right? 

 

>>> Yes formation and discernment are two different things, but I think the point you missed is that the seminary IS a place for discernment where formation occurs.

 

So to make sure I'm clear regarding this, I didn't miss that point.  I never said the seminary wasn't a place for discernment.  It absolutely can be.  I made the point that formation is not the same thing as discernment (though the two can complement each other) because your sentences on formation (that formation is valuable regardless of vocation) didn't support your idea they followed, that "active discernment doesn't start until the seminary".  That's the only reason I mentioned that. 

 

 

[JLim92]

I totally agree with you! This is the funny thing, I think we understand each other but are clarifying over and over again.

I think the point I was trying to make is that active discernment doesn't start until the seminary (not the only reason) because formation occurs in the seminary. I think that's why I was talking about formation, not that they're the same thing. And yes I know you never said that the seminary is not a place for discernment but I guess it was the way you wrote it to argue my point in the article that made it sound like that was your point. But of course I knew that this wasn't what you meant, it'd be preposterous.

I really don't feel like we are arguing anything really important here now. From my understanding, you and I agree with each other, even though we may have trouble with that because of how we phrase things. I think I understand your point of view now. Really don't know what else to say! Haha!

[NotreDame]

>>> This is the funny thing, I think we understand each other but are clarifying over and over again.

 

I think we may ultimately agree in spirit, but I'm still having trouble with many of your statements.   

 

In all this, I'm trying to answer your question of why I called your article silly and help you understand why others found it problematic as well.  I think the reason is that, while you agree with my summary above, the actual words you wrote have a very different meaning.  That leaves me trying to figure out where the disconnect is. 

 

Here is another example of where your words confuse me:

 

>>> I think the point I was trying to make is that active discernment doesn't start until the seminary (not the only reason) because formation occurs in the seminary

 

I'm just not sure where you are getting this distinction about "active discernment" vs "passive" or what you mean by it.  Is this a theological concept I'm not familiar with or is it some sort of distinction you are making on your own?  And this does not agree with my summary two posts above that you just said you agree with. 

 

So, these are the things that bothered me about the article.  There's a lack of clarity that can allow someone to draw conclusions that I just don't think are correct.  I'm happy to discuss it here or on PM, because if you are dealing with youth that are discerning many things and if you have readers on your blog then if you are going to tackle this subject it's important to make sure you have a grasp of the issues and are communicating them in a way that won't be misunderstood. 

 

If it were some other subject, let's say, birth control, it wouldn't be as big of a deal.  Anyone could point to Humanae Vitae and be done with it.  Discernment, on the other hand, isn't so clear.  Unlike the theology of the body, which received a lot of clarity from the Church over the last 30 years, proper discernment of vocation is just beginning to get some attention again.  Since discernment of a vocation is something that can affect a person's conscience very strongly, advice - good or bad - can have a strong impact for better or worse.  Yet, since a calling is by it's nature it is very unique and personal, giving proper general advice on the subject can be very difficult.  

 

I'd also encourage you to review people's thoughts on the previous discussion here if you haven't already:

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/131659-dont-just-discern-your-vocation/#.UnBMUyW4bDc

 

This thread might help you to understand where others are coming from. 

 

Edited November 1, 2013 by NotreDame

[JLim92]

It is not a theological concept at all. I'm using the literal definition of active (being engaged in an activity, to be more specific something physical). So active discernment I guess would be an umbrella term for actions like being in the seminary, going to a come and see weekend, dating, etc. Something visible and active to reflect the invisible inner discernment.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on specific parts of my article, where I can improve and communicate properly. I'd much rather continue this conversation over email (I don't ever use this site at all so it'd be much more convenient over email). You may contact me at johnlim5646@gmail.com

I will definitely look at this post thread after work. And I would love to hear your experience with discernment. I look forward to your email :)

[AccountDeleted]

What a shame you are taking this offline because it has been fascinating to read the thread. I, too, have some problems with the way the article is worded, and I also wonder if part of the problem is that male discernment to the priesthood, via the seminary, is a radically different experience that female discernment via the convent. I know the thread has not gone in that direction and that you have both been focusing on the seminary, but I still think that this thread raises a lot of interesting points of view and needs to be discussed. You say JLIM92 that your target audience is young Catholics -- well, this is the place where a lot of your target audience hangs out!! :)

[TheresaThoma]

I just wanted to add that "active" discernment means something very different to many of us on here which might help explain some of the disconnect. Most people would say they are actively discerning if they are making contact with communities and making visits. I think most people when they are thinking of entering a community they would say they are in serious discernment with the community.

[NotreDame]

TheresaThoma - yes, this was a point I made in a follow-up email, that "passive" vs "active" discernment was sort of an arbitrary distinction that was made without any explanation. 

 

Nunsense - glad you found the exchange interesting ;)  I was worried I was just spamming the thread.