Winchester Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 you're supporting murders in the mob who sold alcohol. so in your mind state murder is not ok but mob murder is ok? I'm supporting selling alcohol in spite of "laws" against it. Go back and read what I've said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 um no. the question is not "is the state heroic" lets re-read to check for understanding 2 people voted "criminal" 1 voted "sinner" and 5 people, bless them, voted "heroes." There is not an option for "no comment, xcept cops are heroes." Winchester, politicians try to twist around the question. Are people who sold alcohol during prohibition criminals sinners or heroes is the question. I am not claiming anyone is heroic here. 5 phatmassers are. i don't know if you are among them or not. I'll refer you to my advice for havok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 so are you evaluating the moral dimensions of this question relative to an alternative past/present/future reality that does not exist? Are you saying you support the "concept" or the "theory" that selling alcohol in defiance of prohibition laws could/would be heroic? Because this is not a theoretical question. This really happened to real people in American history. Can you not separate reality from theory? ughhh ideology is a prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) So all you people who call them heroes, would you also extend that compliment to the Cali cartel (or what's left of it), or to the Mexican drug gangs, or to the gangbanging drug dealers controlling the street corners on the souih and west sides (or whatever is the gang controlled territory in your town)? Edited October 28, 2013 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Ideology = beliefs which conflict with mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 So all you people who call them heroes, would you also extend that compliment to the Cali cartel (or what's left of it), or to the Mexican drug gangs, or to the gangbanging drug dealers controlling the street corners on the souih and west sides (or whatever is the gang controlled territory in your town)? Well, we call people who incinerated entire towns "heroes". I don't think the Cali cartel has remotely approached what "Heroes" did to Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 the problem with the mob was not their alcohol selling. what the people here are saying is that bringing in alcohol to the US during prohibition was NOT wrong, and some might go as far to say it's heroic to do so. the mob did many bad things, though, so we cannot praise the mob as heroes... but they're not disqualified from being heroes for having sold alcohol in defiance of the law--it's for their violence that they're disqualified from being heroes. the fact that they sold alcohol against the law was not what made them bad people. obviously the way the question was worded, people were answering on the basis of the sale of alcohol--saying that in and of itself that was not an immoral act, and many people consider it to have been heroic. the other things they did were of course wrong and not heroic at all. it's like a question about Hitler's smoking policies.... someone might think it's a great idea to ban smoking, so if they're asked "were the people that fought against smoking over the last century heroes?".... there's nothing wrong with such people actually considering the anti-tobacco crusade of the Nazis to have been a good thing (I disagree based on my view of the role of the state, but there's nothing wrong with it just because it was the Nazis doing it and it was part of their control of the German state; just like if people here support the running of alcohol even though it was part of the mafia scheme)... now of course an individual helping the mafia run alcohol or helping the Nazis fight smoking would have to answer for their material cooperation in evil. how remote was their cooperation in evil, etc. etc.? but the mere fact of selling alcohol illegally under prohibition is not a problem for most of us here, it'd be the other things they were supporting in the mafia that would be the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Well, we call people who incinerated entire towns "heroes". I don't think the Cali cartel has remotely approached what "Heroes" did to Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki. do you have the inability to stay on topic? all you do is turn all conversations to government sanctioned killing. it definitely shows us something about you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 do you have the inability to stay on topic? all you do is turn all conversations to government sanctioned killing. it definitely shows us something about you. I pointed something out about use of the word hero. I've rejected the notion that killing can become acceptable simply because it's legalized by declaration of a human institution. The belief that murder ceases to become murder because it's committed in the name of the State is prevalent. Who is "us"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I pointed something out about use of the word hero. I've rejected the notion that killing can become acceptable simply because it's legalized by declaration of a human institution. The belief that murder ceases to become murder because it's committed in the name of the State is prevalent. Who is "us"? no one is talking about the state in this topic. this is not about them but about the mob. lillbit is right, you do sound just like a politician. you can never answer a question unless its about the state and other questions get turned into a talking point about your dislike of the state. this topic is not about the state, its not really hard to understand that. so do you have the inability to stay on topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 no one is talking about the state in this topic. this is not about them but about the mob. lillbit is right, you do sound just like a politician. you can never answer a question unless its about the state and other questions get turned into a talking point about your dislike of the state. this topic is not about the state, its not really hard to understand that. so do you have the inability to stay on topic? Prohibition: Now no longer involves the State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Prohibition: Now no longer involves the State. keep dodging question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 keep dodging question. Pointing out that Prohibition involves the State isn't "dodging the question". I answered the question, already. Al clarified. Unfortunately, religiosity is overcoming reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Pointing out that Prohibition involves the State isn't "dodging the question". I answered the question, already. Al clarified. Unfortunately, religiosity is overcoming reason. no, brining in your talking points to avoid answering the question is what you do lately. avoid questions, turn it into a complaint about the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) All other distinctions aside, I find it hard to characterize alcohol as an "heroic" cause. I think heroism has to have something in it that is seeking to achieve a moral ideal...I don't think alcohol, whatever its merits, is a particularly glorious habit of mankind. Edited October 28, 2013 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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