Hell?

[blazeingstar]

While these 3 are very reliable sources, I think we need to be careful about private revelation and be aware that it can be twisted.  I know I was once sent a "vision of hell" that included a 15 year old girl who told the viewer all she did was have a simple kiss with her beau and a 9 year old who stole from his mother's purse and lied to his father and a 80 year old priest who was "humble in every way" but was angry at a beggar and turned the man away while he ate a big dinner...one time.  I fear that these are far too easily manipulated to pay any mind to.  These are usually spread by the "3 days darkness" crowd.

 

I do not agree with Hell being God's anger.  Hell is complete separation from God.  Anger is a connection....and from my understanding God mourns those He has lost to Hell.  Not saying this is inaccurate or that the vision wasn't real, however, these were given to children in a different language at different times in history and understanding of theology.  

 

If you have ever been away from someone and long for them to be near, you will know that separation is a painful process.  If that person has gravely sinned against you, you know that the relationship may never recover.  There may be physical or emotional danger involved.  That's where God is great.  If we truly repent and use His sacraments we are able to recreate that bond and strengthen it....it doesn't have to be perminate.

[Nihil Obstat]

While these 3 are very reliable sources, I think we need to be careful about private revelation and be aware that it can be twisted.  I know I was once sent a "vision of hell" that included a 15 year old girl who told the viewer all she did was have a simple kiss with her beau and a 9 year old who stole from his mother's purse and lied to his father and a 80 year old priest who was "humble in every way" but was angry at a beggar and turned the man away while he ate a big dinner...one time.  I fear that these are far too easily manipulated to pay any mind to.  These are usually spread by the "3 days darkness" crowd.

Three days of darkness are actually an amazingly consistent element of approved Catholic private revelation. Enough so that it deserves to be taken seriously.

Whether it is literal or not is beside the point, but it is mentioned across many cultural, linguistic, and temporal lines.

[blazeingstar]

Three days of darkness are actually an amazingly consistent element of approved Catholic private revelation. Enough so that it deserves to be taken seriously.

Whether it is literal or not is beside the point, but it is mentioned across many cultural, linguistic, and temporal lines.

 

It seems very silly and arbitrary to me....and not quite relevant in our modern world.  So if you're in a car you just die?  What about if you "live in your car" but have a home.  What if you live in an apartment building?  can you not just open the outside door or the inside door?  Can you bless candles yourself...i mean really as long as you know the formula?  Too many things which are vastly irreconcilable and wierd.

[MIKolbe]

I spent time on three different death rows. I never met a man there who was sane and sober when committing his crime. Being around convicts will vastly change the way you look at life. It's easy on the outside to simply see the crime they committed and see them as evil-doers. On the inside though, you see people who are sick, scarred, and damaged in ways that would shock Most of us.

 

 

This is where I struggle with the whole topic HCF brought up.  Granted, I've never been on death row, neither do I have the experiences nor the insights CatherineM has; but in my limited experiences with inmates much of what she said rings true. 

 

Perhaps our finite minds like neat boxes of good or evil..and when you have a box, we feel compelled or even obligated to put people into "us" and "them" labeled boxes. Maybe that is a part of our weakness?  A construct or limitation of a finite mind? Of course, in the end this will be how it will be; but I do not think we have the minds to comprehend the fullness of the truth of a person to be able accurately decide which box without it being revealed to us.  I think maybe that is where I get all frustrated.  You see someone as 'bad', and then you realize you are most likely worse...and you're not in jail, but they are...

 

Reminds me a something my Bishop said once as he was referring to inmates... "The only difference between us and them is that they got caught."

[PhuturePriest]

I take solace in knowing that as an all-just and endlessly merciful God, if God deems someone to have rejected him and that person goes to hell, it was a perfect judgment, as God is perfect and everything He does is perfect. Who am I to question His judgment?

[Nihil Obstat]

It seems very silly and arbitrary to me....and not quite relevant in our modern world.  So if you're in a car you just die?  What about if you "live in your car" but have a home.  What if you live in an apartment building?  can you not just open the outside door or the inside door?  Can you bless candles yourself...i mean really as long as you know the formula?  Too many things which are vastly irreconcilable and wierd.

You seem to be referring to a very specific version of the three days of darkness. I see no reason that we might not interpret it in less strictly literalistic ways.

For instance, just off the top of my head, cloud covering the earth could be interpreted as a day of darkness. The sun appearing dimmer could. And even that is still a very literal interpretation, which I do not want to bind myself to as being truly essential to such prophesies. 

 

ETA: 10:20 am MNT:

I have an excellent resource on this, Trial Tribulation and Triumph by Desmond Birch. It will take me a while track down, but I can get some great references if you like. He dealt with this specific subject in one of the opening chapters.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Nihil Obstat

[Jaime]

Right...

 

I see a lot of pain and suffering every day, it hurts my heart that these same people could very well continue their suffering (tenfold) after death because they either don't adhere to a religion or are non-Christian.

 

I have three thoughts that may or may not help.  This is speculation more than theology

 

I have noticed with our saints and their visions that their visions seem to have a personal tie to them.  Especially in their visions of hell. To exemplify this let's include St John Bosco's visions of hell.  His vision of hell involved the boys he had vowed to protect.   St Teresa of Avila was dealing directly with the impact (and newness) of protestantism.  So I'm wondering if a saint's vision of hell is impacted by the struggles they have to deal with in their lives? The reality of hell has to be different since all these visions are so diverse. 

 

Secondly, the visions of hell that we read about, read like God chose hell for these people.  I think you'll agree with your theological studies that the truth is the opposite.  People choose to reject God not the other way.

 

 

Third and final thought.  I think it's amazing that you are working with inmates.  I have a tremendous amount of respect for you for doing that. 

[r2Dtoo]

For what it's worth:

 

In my view, it really makes no sense for their to be a Hell and a loving God at the same time.  I mean, you can try and say that God needs to make a place for the souls that knowingly reject Him, but who would choose eternal suffering?  It doesn't make any sense.

[Era Might]

For what it's worth:

 

In my view, it really makes no sense for their to be a Hell and a loving God at the same time.  I mean, you can try and say that God needs to make a place for the souls that knowingly reject Him, but who would choose eternal suffering?  It doesn't make any sense.

 

Why doesn't it make sense? People choose decades of suffering while they're alive. I don't think it's incomprehensible that someone could carry that into eternity.

[r2Dtoo]

Why doesn't it make sense? [b]People choose decades of suffering while they're alive.[/b] I don't think it's incomprehensible that someone could carry that into eternity.

 

They do?

[Era Might]

They do?

 

Yes. The world is one long story of people choosing what is not good for them, and then learning to love it.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Era Might

[r2Dtoo]

Yes. The world is one long story of people choosing what is not good for them, and then learning to love it.

 

Care to give examples?

[Era Might]

Care to give examples?

 

Just take a drive around town at night. You'll find examples.

[r2Dtoo]

Just take a drive around town at night. You'll find examples.

 

People choose drug addiction and prostitution(although prostitution is less often really a choice) because they see nothing better, and are at times mentally ill.  Heaven and Hell on the other hand are pretty black and white to everybody, and I know you don't believe that the mentally ill deserve to go to Hell. 

Edited October 23, 2013 by r2Dtoo

[Era Might]

People choose drug addiction and prostitution(although prostitution is less often really a choice) because they see nothing better, and are at times mentally ill.  Heaven and Hell on the other hand are pretty black and white to everybody, and I know you don't believe that the mentally ill deserve to go to Hell. 

 

I think prostitution and drug use is the least of what you'll find in man. I don't buy that people only choose what is bad for them because they can't see any better. A father who abandons his children, for example, can most certainly see something better.

 

I don't agree that heaven and hell are black and white to everybody. I linked to a clip from the movie Hellraiser in my previous post. In that story one of the premises is that the demons who appear appear as angels or demons, according to a person's pleasure...to the man who seeks the box, who seeks the pain and suffering in the box that brings forth the demons, he seeks his pleasure.

 

Everyone has something going on inside them, whether it is mental illness or something else. But without a starting point of human responsibility, not merely human guilt but responsibility, the ability to be responsible, to deal with life, then what hope is there for us?