Don't Just Discern Your Vocation.

[TheresaThoma]

In general I think that it depends on how the community handles the visit. How much you are able to participate in the day to day life.

For example I spent almost 5 days with a community on a Come and See retreat but I didn't feel like I got an accurate idea of how things were actually in the community (it was good but I knew that it wasn't the normal schedule and I wasn't ready to decide without knowing what the day to day life is).

On the other hand I spent 5 days for my interview living in one of the houses of the place I will be working at next year and I was pretty much just thrown into the day to day routine.  By about day 3 I knew that that is where I wanted to be and that God was calling me to spend the next year of my life.

My third situation was on a 10 day young adult retreat with a different religious community. The retreat schedule was similar to their normal schedule (how much we prayed when we prayed etc) and they really showed us their spirituality. I felt like I got a good overview of the community but I still feel like I need to make a visit specifically for discernment.

 

So I think a week can be sufficient to make a decision, provided you are able to get an accurate idea of what the day to day life is. I think it is also good to have a couple of visits (maybe a short weekend visit and then a longer visit). This obviously would cost more but I think it helps you get a more balanced view. If you are experiencing some spiritual dryness when you visit it would be difficult to really discern. Or if you are stressed, really tired etc. By visiting a couple of times you can get a better idea if you aren't called there or if you are called there but on one visit you were stressed and in a period of spiritual dryness.

 

Though not a replacement for visits, frequent phone calls, emails and even video chats can be very helpful. I think they can make the time that you are actual able to spend with the community more "productive". You spend less time on the initial awkwardness and general info.

 

 

(Nunsense I am starting to take after you with my replies!)

[Gabriela]

Actually, on further thought, I am wondering what everyone thinks is the ideal amount of time for a visit?

 

I am pretty confident that I can make a decision about a community and whether I would fit in, during a two week live-in visit. I might be able to do it within a week, but I find it takes me a week just to get familiar with the routine and the community culture and I start to relax them during the second week. I know for sure I don't need 3 months, or even 2 months. 2-3 weeks might be ideal but I am pretty confident that 2 weeks would do it for me.

 

And a 2 week visit would mean not having to give up flat or car or job etc... it could be done during a vacation.

 

What do others think? This might be a very individual thing but I'm curious. How long does it take you to make up your mind about a situation, like a new job, school, community etc?

 

I have known twice that a community was not right for me within a week. I am now discerning with a community that I would not even think to enter until I have stayed for at least a month. It's a very different way of life in this community, so I would want to be sure that I could cut it in the long(er) term. I mean, it's lovely for a week or two as a retreat, but would I want to spend every day of the rest of my life doing this? Better stay for a while to find out...

 

Make sense?

Edited October 20, 2013 by curiousing

[Gabriela]

RE the article: I largely agree. (Not to mention he's a really good writer.) No, it's not that easy to go try out communities as he makes it sound, but I think he's exaggerating for rhetorical effect. Imagine if every Catholic family sent their kids on a round of communities/seminaries instead of sending them to college. It would make more sense, wouldn't it? Go try out that superior vocation—see if you can do it—and if you can't, well then, we'll find something else for you to do. Instead, religious life and priesthood are held up as extraordinary, as "the other option". They should be tried first and rejected only if the person is unable.

 

So, yeah, I agree. But it is hard...

[AccountDeleted]

In general I think that it depends on how the community handles the visit. How much you are able to participate in the day to day life.

For example I spent almost 5 days with a community on a Come and See retreat but I didn't feel like I got an accurate idea of how things were actually in the community (it was good but I knew that it wasn't the normal schedule and I wasn't ready to decide without knowing what the day to day life is).

On the other hand I spent 5 days for my interview living in one of the houses of the place I will be working at next year and I was pretty much just thrown into the day to day routine.  By about day 3 I knew that that is where I wanted to be and that God was calling me to spend the next year of my life.

My third situation was on a 10 day young adult retreat with a different religious community. The retreat schedule was similar to their normal schedule (how much we prayed when we prayed etc) and they really showed us their spirituality. I felt like I got a good overview of the community but I still feel like I need to make a visit specifically for discernment.

 

So I think a week can be sufficient to make a decision, provided you are able to get an accurate idea of what the day to day life is. I think it is also good to have a couple of visits (maybe a short weekend visit and then a longer visit). This obviously would cost more but I think it helps you get a more balanced view. If you are experiencing some spiritual dryness when you visit it would be difficult to really discern. Or if you are stressed, really tired etc. By visiting a couple of times you can get a better idea if you aren't called there or if you are called there but on one visit you were stressed and in a period of spiritual dryness.

 

Though not a replacement for visits, frequent phone calls, emails and even video chats can be very helpful. I think they can make the time that you are actual able to spend with the community more "productive". You spend less time on the initial awkwardness and general info.

 

 

(Nunsense I am starting to take after you with my replies!)

 

 

Yeah, this makes sense. Even though I spent two months with the Benedictines, because I was outside the enclosure and dealing with guests every day, I never got to experience what their cloistered life would really be like. I was still able to discern that it wasn't the community for me, but it might have been quicker if I had actually been able to live the life with them.

 

So, yeah, how long probably depends on how closely one is able to life the life with the community.

 

On the other hand, one of my pet peeves is really long postulancies. Even as a postulant, one is still not a member of the community, and (depending on the particular community) this is expressed in different ways. Since canon law doesn't stipulate anything about the postulancy (it requires one year as a Novice but no mention of being a Postulant), it does seem to me that more focus should be on the Novitiate, which is the real formation time. Postulancy is mainly an introduction to the life, and 6 months is more than adequate for most people. As a Postulant, one is denied participation in certain activities that are allowed to a Novice, so it makes sense to me, after the initial introduction, to allow one to move on to the activities of a member of the community. It just seems that the whole process has become very complicated with aspirancies and candidacies and postulancies - all before one ever becomes a member of the community as a Novice, which is supposed to be the 'real' test of the vocation. But that is just a personal opinion of mine, I know. :|

[TheresaThoma]

(Comment on the whole postulancy thing, I think that many communities have longer postulancies when they do don't things like live-ins before formal entrance. If someone has not spent more than a week or two with the community it makes sense to give them a longer "adjustment" phase.)

[AccountDeleted]

(Comment on the whole postulancy thing, I think that many communities have longer postulancies when they do don't things like live-ins before formal entrance. If someone has not spent more than a week or two with the community it makes sense to give them a longer "adjustment" phase.)

 

 

I still don't buy it. Six months is more than enough time to live in the community but not as a member of the community, unless the postulant feels they aren't ready for Clothing or the community has a particular problem with the Postulant that they think will change overtime. But as I said, this is my own pet peeve, and I don't expect anyone to see it my way.

[Gabriela]

It just seems that the whole process has become very complicated with aspirancies and candidacies and postulancies - all before one ever becomes a member of the community as a Novice, which is supposed to be the 'real' test of the vocation. But that is just a personal opinion of mine, I know. :|

 

I actually agree with this. I think we're "multiplying stages" at the moment. I don't think it's good. A few months' postulancy (the specific length depending on the particular individual, her maturity, how she's adjusting, etc.) is sufficient, IMO. On to the novitiate—or out. 

[Lil'Nun]

I have to be a perpetual discerner at the moment. Because I look after an elderly relative, and they depend on me. It's obvious this is where God wants me to be, at least at the moment. But I feel very strongly drawn to religious life and hope to enter one day.

I personally would like to make at least a couple of visits of two weeks plus, distance permitting, a few day or weekend visits. I'm older and a lot of communities have concerns about older aspirants, this would allow both parties to really discern the "fit", plenty of time to pray on it and eliminate the danger of being swept up into some kind of "honeymoon" period.

However, things might be different for me as I know I cannot enter for a while and so I would have plenty of time to visit and communicate in the meantime.

Now all I have to do is find a community that attracts me strongly and is open to this type of open-ended arrangement.

I just couldn't do a three-month live-in at the moment as I have responsibilities at home. I can do two weeks here and there and a few days from time-to-time.

God will find a place for me, this I know.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Lil'Nun

[AccountDeleted]

I have to be a perpetual discerner at the moment. Because I look after an elderly relative, and they depend on me. It's obvious this is where God wants me to be, at least at the moment. But I feel very strongly drawn to religious life and hope to enter one day.

I personally would like to make at least a couple of visits of two weeks plus, distance permitting, a few day or weekend visits. I'm older and a lot of communities have concerns about older aspirants, this would allow both parties to really discern the "fit", plenty of time to pray on it and eliminate the danger of being swept up into some kind of "honeymoon" period.

However, things might be different for me as I know I cannot enter for a while and so I would have plenty of time to visit and communicate in the meantime.

Now all I have to do is find a community that attracts me strongly and is open to this type of open-ended arrangement.

I just couldn't do a three-month live-in at the moment as I have responsibilities at home. I can do two weeks here and there and a few days from time-to-time.

God will find a place for me, this I know.

 

 

As Sunday's Gospel reading reminded us:

 

'Now will not God see justice done to his chosen who cry to him day and night even when he delays to help them? I promise you, he will see justice done to them, and done speedily.'

 

For me, this has always meant that all we can do is our best, and to pray to God always for His justice and His mercy. And then to trust in His love. :)

[Julie de Sales]

I liked the article, but there are some things I don't agree with. As some of you said, it's not that easy to enter a community and try their life as the author seems to suggest. As for the length of a live-in, if you are living with your parents and studying, like me, you can go for a 3 months live-in during summer holiday. But if I would have a job and other responsabilities, it just isn't practical. I also find (at least in my case) that in 1-2 weeks you can really see if the life of a particular community suits you. 

 

He also writes "When God calls, answer. After you answer, ponder. While you ponder it follow Him wherever He leads you." The problem is that you cannot always be sure that what you experience is the call of God. And even if it were, you still have to find the right religious community. Certain people may recieve the call together with the indication of where to enter; but some of us have to search, visit, spend time in prayer in order to have more clarity about where God wants us to be. 

 

I'm certainly the type of discerner that tends to over-think it, to dream about it and to panic if things seem to advance faster than I would like. But in making a decision like entering the convent or the seminary, you need courage as well as prudence.

[AccountDeleted]

I liked the article, but there are some things I don't agree with. As some of you said, it's not that easy to enter a community and try their life as the author seems to suggest. As for the length of a live-in, if you are living with your parents and studying, like me, you can go for a 3 months live-in during summer holiday. But if I would have a job and other responsabilities, it just isn't practical. I also find (at least in my case) that in 1-2 weeks you can really see if the life of a particular community suits you. 

 

He also writes "When God calls, answer. After you answer, ponder. While you ponder it follow Him wherever He leads you." The problem is that you cannot always be sure that what you experience is the call of God. And even if it were, you still have to find the right religious community. Certain people may recieve the call together with the indication of where to enter; but some of us have to search, visit, spend time in prayer in order to have more clarity about where God wants us to be. 

 

I'm certainly the type of discerner that tends to over-think it, to dream about it and to panic if things seem to advance faster than I would like. But in making a decision like entering the convent or the seminary, you need courage as well as prudence.

 

 

I understand where he is coming from but as you point out, it isn't always easy to know what God's will is. When the Carmel in Canada told me that they had voted to accept me for entrance after two weeks visit (and no formal application), I knew it wasn't the right place for me - mainly because the Chinese culture of the community felt alien to me, but for other reasons as well. But because they had gone ahead and done this thing without consulting me, I felt that God must be trying to tell me something. Even though I did not want to enter, I almost felt compelled to do so because it appeared to be God's will. God's will isn't always the thing that is in front of us or the easiest thing. So if one is looking for signs, then it can get very confusing.

 

We all want to think we are following where God leads us, but working out just where that is can take some time. So what we have here is the contradiction between being appearing to be stuck in perpetual discernment, or of following every path because it just happens to be in front of us.

 

Discernment is a VERY personal experience and I just don't think there is a 'one size fits all' for anyone.

[NotreDame]

I have to be a perpetual discerner at the moment. Because I look after an elderly relative, and they depend on me. It's obvious this is where God wants me to be, at least at the moment. But I feel very strongly drawn to religious life and hope to enter one day.

 

If you are the only person that can really care for this elderly relative, then I wouldn't consider you to be discerning, per se, and therefore wouldn't label myself a perpetual discerner.  I'd say you are fulfilling your current state in life. St Thomas actually addresses this in the page of the Summa that Br Gabriel links to:

 

"Consequently we must say that when their parents are in such need that they cannot fittingly be supported otherwise than by the help of their children, these latter may not lawfully enter religion in despite of their duty to their parents."

 

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3189.htm#article6

[Maggyie]

I have to strongly disagree with the article.

 

Religious life is objectively the better vocation but nothing is objective when it comes to pastoral care of the individual soul! If we were insects it would be easy to herd the mass of humanity into the novitiate and let the chips fall where they may. But we are not insects, God created us as individuals, loves us as individuals and calls us as individuals...

 

I wonder if Brother would recommend such a breezy discernment if hesitating before final or temporary vows, or ordination? Surely not. But by then you have invested years in the community, have a massive gap in your resume, or have huge seminary debt, perhaps have lost many relationships on the "outside."

 

The economic and emotional pressure to stay, may be overwhelming. Especially if you have a vocation director whispering in your ear, "abandon yourself to the will of God, remember that this is the objectively better vocation." One would hope the individual has enough self-respect to realize that trusting God at that critical moment means not to abandon oneself to the path of least resistance!

 

Very disturbing piece, especially when he says "you can always put the community back on the shelf." I've only known one person IRL who has recovered from "putting the community back on the shelf" but from what I've read on Phatmass and elsewhere it's SLIGHTLY more challenging than that. I hope I don't come off too negative, and I do agree about the perpetual discernment thing, but there are red flags flying for me here. I have seen too many VDs that emphasize recruitment above all else, almost running vocation mills, and it works out fine for their numbers but not so fine for the warm bodies that are the meat for the mill.

[Catherine Therese]

"putting the community back on the shelf" but from what I've read on Phatmass and elsewhere it's SLIGHTLY more challenging than that.

I actually felt compelled to comment on the article (surprise, surprise).

I really don't think that Brother was recommending that we throw out prudent and patient discernment with the indecisive bathwater, but his obvious zeal and current strength in his own call DID result in rather a "breezy," to use your word, treatment of some of the non-standard paths many of us are called to take. We can hardly blame him - if his future with his community looks strong and sure, he probably has little experience of the difficulties of leaving religious life. Generally contact is severed or at least limited between those who leave and their fellow postulants/novices so he has been protected from this very experience that has been overlooked here.

Overall, I agree with Brother's broad thesis. Drawing its ferocity from the narcissism of our present age, there is rather an epidemic of commitment-phobia that cripples many who would actually find peace and fulfilment if only they could trust Him and truly commit.

The notion of "putting the community back on the shelf" in most cases is completely removed from any kind of possible reality; when a person has made all of the life changes that you have listed and given themselves over to the Lord by entering a community, they have at least initially done so with the intention of a total and irrevocable gift of their very selves. They give themselves to the Lord, yes, and this is potentially portable, but part of the way they give themselves to the Lord is through as complete as possible a gift of themselves to their community. It is in loving others that we can most easily, in these composite (body+soul) realities of ours, express our love for the Lord, after all. It is THIS aspect that is not at all easily undone.

I'm not even sure "undone" is the word I'm looking for, there.

I honestly think that material written for lay audience by young religious (not referring to years of life, more referring to years of experience in religious life) should always be reviewed by a suitably experienced superior who can ensure that things like this can be caught before publish and massaged in such a way as to avoid these types of mistaken characterisations of an aspect of life experience from which the average young religious has been protected. Better that the possibility of one day leaving a community not be mentioned at all, than it be inadvertently treated in a misleading fashion.

[NotreDame]

To the last three posters... Thank you...  I did comment on the article, but did not comment here because I didn't want to be too negative, but I'm happy to see others share my concerns.

 

To Catherine Therese's comment on young religious publishing articles for lay people... I am genuinely surprised by it as well.  It's really not a well constructed essay.  It's not theologically sound.  I've never heard of the term "vocation mills" - though I can think of a couple groups that fit the bill - and poorly constructed letters like his play into the hands of these groups.

 

As a guy looking into the priesthood as far back as 10 years ago, getting advice on discernment was very, very difficult.  I felt bounced between wishy-washy, unclear musings (like Brother Gabriel's), gay-heterodox diocesan people I'd never trust (sorry, but it's true), and manipulative VD's from the "vocation mills."  A couple of times I just gave up for a long while because I didn't trust anyone.

 

I have reason to believe it's gotten a lot better.  There are much clearer books out on discernment and diocese's now have better people and processes in place.   Still, seeing a letter like that really upset me and brought back a lot of the old frustration.  Some of the best discernment advice I ever received came from seminarians, so I believe that younger people can have something to add to the conversation, but I'm surprised that for a Dominican his arguments and points were so scattered, leaving such an unhelpful, even unhealthy impression on the reader.