Vatican Tells Bishops Not To Reform Faster Than Pope Francis

[Apotheoun]

. . .

 

though personally I'd prefer to keep with the "annulment" concept rather than the "ecclesiastical divorce" concept, it does seem possible this signals a shift towards the ecclesiastical divorce concept... but actually I bet at the end of the day the synod will still keep with the terminology of annulments, but who knows.

Perhaps that is because you are - at least - a little concerned about Roman Catholic dogma and the fact that adopting the Orthodox system would involve repudiating almost 1,000 years of Roman Catholic tradition. It would mean that the Roman Catholic Church would admit that it has been wrong even though it has told the Orthodox - going back to the time of the schism - that they are wrong. If the Roman Church can have been so wrong on a central Christian doctrine for so long, what does that say about the Roman Church?

 

Roman Catholics should hope that the Synod reaffirms existing practice.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Some of my Orthodox friends believe that the Roman Church is preparing for a "doctrinal development" on this issue, but of course they mean that facetiously.

[Apotheoun]

Al, if the Roman Church changes its practice on marriage how will you counter Orthodox who say that since the Roman Church was wrong for centuries about marriage - even bringing about the breakup of the Catholic Church in England over the issue of divorce - it stands to reason that Rome can be wrong about other doctrines as well (e.g., the filioque, papal supremacy and infallibility, created grace, etc.).

[Apotheoun]

For the sake of historical consistency I hope the Roman Church maintains its present practice. That is what I will be praying for, but I do worry because the calling of the Synod itself indicates to me that the pope wants some kind of change or loosening of standards.

[Aloysius]

for as much as you cite them throughout all these threads, I think you should know, I personally don't consider "your Orthodox friends" to be any kind of authority on these matters, not even an authority on how the Orthodox Churches would react to anything, actually... they're pretty worthless anectdotes from my point of view, though if they comfort you, go on using them, but they do nothing for me (I have Orthodox friends too, btw, and they don't tend to have the same opinions as yours)

 

oh, and your continued presumption that Pope Francis is somehow totally ignorant on how Eastern Orthodox ecclesiastical divorce works remains a bit arrogant, especially when you have no proof of that, he merely mentioned Eastern Orthodox practice and you went on and on about how he probably thinks Eastern Orthodox do it that way... but he didn't say that Eastern Orthodox do it that way!!! how low of an opinion do you have of the man, my goodness!  and also you paint a broad brushstroke when you claim that most Roman Catholics assume that the Eastern Orthodox give communion to civilly divorced people... I've never known a single Roman Catholic that thought that, among Roman Catholics who have bothered to think about that question at all.  usually those Roman Catholics that know that Eastern Orthodoxy exists just generally know that the Eastern Orthodox allow for a divorce from the church... which is true... most Roman Catholics don't know the details of how it works, but they basically know there's such a thing as Church divorce.  I don't think anyone really had some preconceived notion than civilly divorced people got communion in the Eastern Churches... I know I sure didn't, and I bet you dollars to donuts that Pope Francis didn't either.

 

I don't believe that this synod will in any way condemn or declare as wrong the historic doctrines of the Roman Church on marriage.  if they look for some inspiration in the ecclesiastic structure of Eastern Orthodox ecclesiastic divorce, they are likely to be looking for the best way to fix the ludicrously broken legalistic annulment process in the Roman Church.  if something more theologically earth shattering does go on, we'll have to see what that is and deal with it accordingly... but there is as of yet absolutely nothing to indicate the outlandish predictions being peddled... (whose logic goes something like: (1) Pope Francis said we should look to how the Eastern Orthodox (2) Pope Francis probably thinks the Orthodox are okay with divorcing and remarrying space aliens because most Roman Catholics don't understand Orthodox practice, (3) Panic!)

[Apotheoun]

for as much as you cite them throughout all these threads, I think you should know, I personally don't consider "your Orthodox friends" to be any kind of authority on these matters, not even an authority on how the Orthodox Churches would react to anything, actually... they're pretty worthless anectdotes from my point of view, though if they comfort you, go on using them, but they do nothing for me (I have Orthodox friends too, btw, and they don't tend to have the same opinions as yours)

Well, neither of us are authorities either. I did not know that you had a lot of Eastern Orthodox friends. I know you went to Egypt and so you may have many Coptic friends, but Eastern Orthodox too? That is nice to hear. How many Orthodox priests do you count as friends? And have you had any detailed discussions with them as I have done?

 

As far as the questions I put forward are concerned, you can avoid trying to answer the questions, that is your right, especially if you cannot come up with an answer that justifies the kinds of changes we have been talking about.

[Apotheoun]

oh, and your continued presumption that Pope Francis is somehow totally ignorant on how Eastern Orthodox ecclesiastical divorce works remains a bit arrogant, especially when you have no proof of that, he merely mentioned Eastern Orthodox practice and you went on and on about how he probably thinks Eastern Orthodox do it that way... but he didn't say that Eastern Orthodox do it that way!!! how low of an opinion do you have of the man, my goodness!  and also you paint a broad brushstroke when you claim that most Roman Catholics assume that the Eastern Orthodox give communion to civilly divorced people... I've never known a single Roman Catholic that thought that, among Roman Catholics who have bothered to think about that question at all.  usually those Roman Catholics that know that Eastern Orthodoxy exists just generally know that the Eastern Orthodox allow for a divorce from the church... which is true... most Roman Catholics don't know the details of how it works, but they basically know there's such a thing as Church divorce.  I don't think anyone really had some preconceived notion than civilly divorced people got communion in the Eastern Churches... I know I sure didn't, and I bet you dollars to donuts that Pope Francis didn't either.

Nothing he has said to date would make me believe he knows much about Eastern Orthodoxy, but if you have some information that I am not privy to, by all means post it. It is not arrogant to question a person's credentials, even the pope's. If you have some evidence that shows he knows what he is talking about on the issue at hand, post it, but I have not found anything that indicates he is doing anything more than giving out sound bytes. 

 

My opinion of the man is irrelevant. I do not know him personally, so I cannot really have an opinion about Pope Francis as a human being. I can have an opinion about what he says though, and so far I admit that I am not impressed by his views on theology. Put of course that is a judgment based upon his sound bytes, because he rarely says anything complex. Perhaps my views of him as a theologian will change when he finally releases an encyclical that he himself has written. I remain open to hearing what he has to say.

 

If he has said something substantive on Eastern Orthodox practice concerning divorced and remarried people, by all means send me the information, because I would be happy to read it. Sadly I have not found anything substantive said by him on the matter on the internet, or in book searches at Google books. But I would appreciate your assistance in the matter.

 

As far as preconceived notions are concerned in regard to the Orthodox, this forum itself has had posters in the past who have said that Orthodox do things - especially on marriage - that are contrary to the teaching of the Lord. There have been threads in the past that attacked the Orthodox for their system of ecclesiastical divorces, and that have accused the Orthodox of universal support for artificial birth control, and the like, and the posters persisted in that viewpoint even when I provided quotations from Russian Orthodox hierarchs opposed to contraception. 

 

I look forward to the information about Pope Francis and his knowledge of Orthodox practices. I could use some good reading material.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

I don't believe that this synod will in any way condemn or declare as wrong the historic doctrines of the Roman Church on marriage.  if they look for some inspiration in the ecclesiastic structure of Eastern Orthodox ecclesiastic divorce, they are likely to be looking for the best way to fix the ludicrously broken legalistic annulment process in the Roman Church.  if something more theologically earth shattering does go on, we'll have to see what that is and deal with it accordingly... but there is as of yet absolutely nothing to indicate the outlandish predictions being peddled... (whose logic goes something like: (1) Pope Francis said we should look to how the Eastern Orthodox (2) Pope Francis probably thinks the Orthodox are okay with divorcing and remarrying space aliens because most Roman Catholics don't understand Orthodox practice, (3) Panic!)

I hope you are right about that. It would be sad if the Roman Church yet again set aside a tradition that it has maintained for 1,000 years.

 

One point, and this is not a criticism of your comment, but isn't part of the Roman Church's tradition the fact that it is rather legalistic, even in relation to the atonement. Is that legalistic approach a bad thing? Certainly it is different than the approach of the East, but does that make it something that must be dumped?

 

Also, isn't the annulment process by definition going to be rather legalistic, because you are dealing with things like an act of the will, and whether or not the couple understood the permanent nature of marriage, etc., don't these types of things, because of the Roman sacramental system, which says that the couple administer the sacrament to each other, lend themselves to legalism?

Edited October 12, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Al, I have to admit that I find it strange that this is even a pressing issue in the Roman Church. I mean it is not like it is hard to get an annulment. In the United States alone about 60,000 are granted each year. So why are there divorced and remarried Catholics who do not have annulments? Have they tried to get one and been denied? And if they were denied an annulment is that a problem? I mean shouldn't the marriage (any marriage) be presumed to be valid, and so is it a surprise when some actually are valid?

 

Instead of changing a system, wouldn't it be better for the Church to redouble its efforts in educating people about the true meaning of marriage?

Edited October 12, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

I do indeed have some Eastern Orthodox friends from back home that I have talked to on occasion about topics such as these... no priests, though.  I'm sure it's not as many as yours but I am also quite equally sure that their opinions are not the same on quite a few topics that you've brought in your appeal-to-Orthodox-friends anectdotes.

 

why should one be required to show that he understands?  it is you that take his statement and go off on the outlandish accusation that he doesn't understand... Cardinal Bergoglio was considered close to the Byzantine Catholics in his diocese in Argentina and had visited the Orthodox there before... for you to basically assume he doesn't understand, you should have to show something he has said where he didn't understand.  I would be extremely surprised if he didn't know what the Orthodox position and practice was on these things.  you have accused him of not understanding, so the burden of proof is on you to show where he has not understood.

 

as far as people on this phorum saying about how terrible the Orthodox practice of ecclesiastic divorce is... that doesn't mean they actually believed that civilly divorced and remarried people received communion, I've never known anyone who thought that... they understood that the Orthodox Church granted divorces.  and anyway you seem to have above done the same thing--said it was wrong and contrary to Our Lord's teaching on the indissolubility of marriage... not in so many words, but quite clearly it's unacceptable as a model to learn from in your perspective.

 

anyway, I didn't really think I had avoided the crux of your questions at all, but then, I'm not sure we're quite talking about the same changes.  when you and I get into it these days you have the tendency to think I'm a Lutheran or believe in religious formlessness or that I want the Roman Church to definitely have married priests or that I want the Church to give communion to civilly divorced and remarried Catholics.  somehow the subtleties in what I say get lost by the time you respond to me, who knows if the fault is in my writing or your reading, but it seems to happen quite a bit these days... hopefully someone out there in lurker land understands what I say, or else all the time I waste in between writing papers for classes is even more wasted lol... I'm pretty sure I'm already some kind of arch-heretic in that Apteka fellow's mind lol.  

 

honestly, I don't know what the answer to fixing the annulment process is.  I just know that it's broken, that currently the people that get annulments often get them because their canon lawyers have to coach them in how to word their petitions and statements so that the proper legal canon applies to it, and something should be done... and I hope the synod can come up with a good solution, and I'd applaud them for studying the Eastern practice and learning from it in the process.

[Apotheoun]

. . . you have accused him of not understanding, so the burden of proof is on you to show where he has not understood.

I have admitted that I cannot prove anything about what Pope Francis has said about Orthodox practice, because he has not said anything substantive on the issue. It is hard to prove something from sound bytes. But you have argued that he does know what he is talking about, and so I asked for the information that you have that proves this to be the case so that I can make an informed judgment based upon your evidence.

 

Should I simply believe his sound bytes even though the circumstances surrounding them makes it sound like he does not know what he is talking about? He talked about doing something about divorced and remarried Catholics receiving communion and then mentioned Orthodox practice, as if that is somehow their practice when it is not. Why mention Orthodox practice after talking about the problem of divorced and remarried people being excluded from communion? It seems an odd thing to say from my perspective.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

haha I have simply said there is no reason to think he doesn't understand it, the Byzantine Catholic Church was under his care in Argentina I believe, and he had some good relations with the Orthodox in his diocese there as well... basically, he has his own sets of "his Orthodox friends" that he could cite, but basically we have no reason to believe he doesn't understand, and every reason to suspect that, having been a Bishop and a Cardinal and having dealt directly with the Orthodox before, that he probably does know.  and even if somehow, someway he is totally ignorant and has the kinds of misconceptions that even a cursory knowledge of the Orthodox would dispel, if he calls upon the synod to study the issue including what the Orthodox practice is when studying the question, they are likely to be able to see quite easily what the Eastern practice actually is.

[Apotheoun]

as far as people on this phorum saying about how terrible the Orthodox practice of ecclesiastic divorce is... that doesn't mean they actually believed that civilly divorced and remarried people received communion, I've never known anyone who thought that... they understood that the Orthodox Church granted divorces.  and anyway you seem to have above done the same thing--said it was wrong and contrary to Our Lord's teaching on the indissolubility of marriage... not in so many words, but quite clearly it's unacceptable as a model to learn from in your perspective.

Al, have you ever wondered why I do not convert to Orthodoxy? Could it be that I do not agree with certain aspects of Orthodox practice?

 

I have made no secret about the fact that I oppose contraception (heck I even oppose NFP because I see it as a type of contraception), yet the Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States are wishy-washy on this topic. Sure the Russian Orthodox are solid, and that is probably why Metropolitan Hilarion has been calling for an alliance between the Roman Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church in defending the family, but I don't live in Russia. 

[Apotheoun]

haha I have simply said there is no reason to think he doesn't understand it, the Byzantine Catholic Church was under his care in Argentina I believe, and he had some good relations with the Orthodox in his diocese there as well... basically, he has his own sets of "his Orthodox friends" that he could cite, but basically we have no reason to believe he doesn't understand, and every reason to suspect that, having been a Bishop and a Cardinal and having dealt directly with the Orthodox before, that he probably does know.  and even if somehow, someway he is totally ignorant and has the kinds of misconceptions that even a cursory knowledge of the Orthodox would dispel, if he calls upon the synod to study the issue including what the Orthodox practice is when studying the question, they are likely to be able to see quite easily what the Eastern practice actually is.

Yes, I have even seen pictures of Pope Francis celebrating liturgy with a Ukrainian Catholic bishop and sadly the Pope (Cardinal Bergoglio at the time) did not appear to understand the rubrics about vesting properly for a bi-ritual service. It does not instill me with confidence when I see things that even I - a layman - know are wrong being done by a Cardinal.

[Aloysius]

so this is what we're talking about here: 

“I think this is the moment for mercy. The divorced may have access to the sacraments. The problem regards those who are in a second marriage … who cannot receive communion. But, in parenthesis, the Orthodox have a different praxis. They follow the theology of economy, and they give a second chance: they allow that.  But I think that this problem – and here I close the parenthesis – should be studied within the framework of matrimonial pastoral care. " -Pope Francis

 

nothing in that indicates any kind of misunderstanding of the way the Orthodox praxis works.  the Orthodox praxis, through their theology of economy, offer the chance for ecclesiastic divorce and remarriage... it is you who has superimposed onto his words the assumption that he thinks all of that happens for civilly divorced and civilly remarried people... he clearly does not, he's clearly talking about the Orthodox praxis within the Orthodox Church.  and he's clearly saying that the synod should study the issue, including a study of that praxis.