Apotheoun Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 Oh yes of course, because somebody who grew up being taught falsehood as truth is going to have the same ability to recognize truth as you do. Uh huh. Again, invincible ignorance involves the inability to comprehend something, and so being raised a particular way, which can obviously cloud a person's mind is not the same thing as invincible ignorance. I was not raised Catholic, but I sought out the truth and converted once I discovered it. All people are morally obligated to seek the truth. In the end God will judge each of us, and we cannot hide the secrets of our hearts from His gaze. He will know who is invincibly ignorant and who is not. The Church in the mean time must presume vincible, not invincible, ignorance in maintaining discipline in connection with the divine law and the sacraments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 Oh yes of course, because somebody who grew up being taught falsehood as truth is going to have the same ability to recognize truth as you do. Uh huh. Arfink, you can take consolation in this, I do think that the Roman Church is going to undertake major reforms to its discipline and even to its understanding of the moral law in the coming years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Again, invincible ignorance involves the inability to comprehend something, and so being raised a particular way, which can obviously cloud a person's mind is not the same thing as invincible ignorance. I was not raised Catholic, but I sought out the truth and converted once I discovered it. All people are morally obligated to seek the truth. In the end God will judge each of us, and we cannot hide the secrets of our hearts from His gaze. He will know who is invincibly ignorant and who is not. The Church in the mean time must presume vincible, not invincible, ignorance in maintaining discipline in connection with the divine law and the sacraments. Again, prove it. You got a source from Canon law perhaps? Or the Catechism? Last I checked, the Church isn't supposed to assume all are damned by default just so that we have proper motivation to go save souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I like how Arfy is all laid-back most of the time, but when he gets into a debate he becomes super aggressive. :smile3: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) Again, prove it. You got a source from Canon law perhaps? Or the Catechism? Last I checked, the Church isn't supposed to assume all are damned by default just so that we have proper motivation to go save souls. It is a constant teaching of the Church that no one is to be thought of as ignorant of the principles of the moral law, because it is written by God on the heart of each and every man. The Catechism is a compendium of doctrine, but it is by no means exhaustive; nevertheless, I do know that it addresses ignorance (willful and otherwise) in the section on conscience (and in other parts of the text), and that it affirms that ignorance of the moral norm is not to be presumed. I think the Catechism is online and it can even be "searched" at some websites. I see no reason for me to post links or scan the document for you when it is so readily available. But feel free to search through it yourself. Edited October 9, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 If you ask a priest point blank and he denies the truths of the faith, I'd say you definitely have invincible ignorance there. I can think of countless other ways that misconduct and misrepresentation of the faith can render belief or even discovery of the truth impossible except perhaps by an act of God, and in those cases I would also say their ignorance is invincible. You say invincible ignorance is uncommon, but I have yet to see anybody prove that. That would be like reading people's souls en masse or asserting that the majority of people go to hell. Truth is so often denied or obscured that it does not surprise me that many people even raised in a supposedly Christian community could be invincibly ignorant. Such a priest would not be able to claim Invincible ignorance. Invincible ignorance requires that the ignorance is not voluntarily chosen. Denying the truths of the Church makes it impossible to claim Invincible ignorance. One cannot deny the truth if they are ignorant of the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Such a priest would not be able to claim Invincible ignorance. Invincible ignorance requires that the ignorance is not voluntarily chosen. Denying the truths of the Church makes it impossible to claim Invincible ignorance. One cannot deny the truth if they are ignorant of the truth. Speaking of which, is there an official church answer to what I said about remarriage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r2Dtoo Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Speaking of which, is there an official church answer to what I said about remarriage? I asked the Pope this personally the other day, but he responded in Latin. So sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Speaking of which, is there an official church answer to what I said about remarriage? We could never permit a sin in order to avoid a different sin. That is why we could never permit remarriage after divorce without annulment as a solution to sleeping around after divorce without an annulment. Both are gravely wrong, and it would be scandalous to permit either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare Brigid Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I believe that the Holy Father will use the extraordinary synod to establish some change in the practice of denying communion to divorced and remarried Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I believe that the Holy Father will use the extraordinary synod to establish some change in the practice of denying communion to divorced and remarried Catholics. So what does a remarried Catholic do, divorce their second spouse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare Brigid Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 So what does a remarried Catholic do, divorce their second spouse? He should refrain from sexual activity with the second spouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Such a priest would not be able to claim Invincible ignorance. Invincible ignorance requires that the ignorance is not voluntarily chosen. Denying the truths of the Church makes it impossible to claim Invincible ignorance. One cannot deny the truth if they are ignorant of the truth. Uhhh, I think you missed my point. If your priest denies the truth to you then you, having been denied access to the truth, cannot be culpable for actions you committed in good faith but based on the bad instruction given by your priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Uhhh, I think you missed my point. If your priest denies the truth to you then you, having been denied access to the truth, cannot be culpable for actions you committed in good faith but based on the bad instruction given by your priest. But on the point of remarriage, what kind of priest is going to be ok with that? Why can't he look something up in a catechism? Are most people in Germany that inept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 But on the point of remarriage, what kind of priest is going to be ok with that? Why can't he look something up in a catechism? Are most people in Germany that inept? You would be surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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