matjay Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Hello, we all know that Jesus was betrayed and suffered, so we can all be saved. Many people condemn or even hate Judas for his betrayal but what if Jesus could not have saved us if he was't betrayed? I think this was ment to happen, after all Jesus did choose Judas to be his follower. please tell your opinion to that question, what do you think? I feel sorry for Judas in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I feel sorry for him as well. Praying for him is good. As to if we should be angry at him for betraying Christ, well...you could, but all of us have betrayed Christ in one way or another, so to me, it would be kind of meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 If you are interested in this line of thought, you should read the gnostic Gospel of Judas. It has been a long time since I have read the fragments, but from what I remember, it is Jesus who tasks Judas with the special task of betraying him, and asks that he has faith in his command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 why don't you have a phishy tag I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Just because Jesus knew what Judas was going to do, doesn't mean that Jesus picked him to do it. It doesn't mean Jesys wanted him to do it. I think if Jesus had his choice, the entire world would have repented and embraced his message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 God is merciful but His justice is something we can't totally understand. Judas had free will and made his own choice, just as the angel Lucifer did. For those who sin against God Himself, it is probably understandable to feel compassion but best to trust God and leave the judgment up to Him. "For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Mk 14:21 Even St Michael left things up to God: '... when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" It's beyond our pay grade. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reminiscere Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 "Woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born." Matthew 26:24 "None of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.†John 17:12 “Poor Judas! Above seventeen hundred years have elapsed since he has been in Hell, and his Hell is still only beginning.†Preparation for Death, St. Alphonsus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 If you are interested in this line of thought, you should read the gnostic Gospel of Judas. It has been a long time since I have read the fragments, but from what I remember, it is Jesus who tasks Judas with the special task of betraying him, and asks that he has faith in his command. Methinks I know where J.K.Rowling got her ideas. ;) That plot sounds awfully familiar! Without intending any slight toward JR, I have to respectfully advise against his suggestion. If you're going to read anything gnostic, I'd wear a hazmat suit. As a source text for the historical time in which it was written and the community for whom it was intended, there is interest and value and if you are a scholar and that is your research area, read away. As a tool for prayerful reflection or theological reasoning, I would recommend finding material from within the Catholic tradition, or at least compatible with the Catholic tradition, to avoid the hazard to your personal formation and faith that materials from heretical groups can cause. Gnosticism is a heresy. Why dabble in its writings? BTW - if anyone reads this as censorship, please let me frame this as an economic proposition. Opportunity cost. You only have so many days to live in your short lifetime. You get to choose where to invest your time. If you invest your time in one thing then other options that were available for that timeframe are now excluded from that timeframe. There is so much rich and beautiful material to read that will build you up in truth, that will bolster your faith and help you to more deeply encounter the Lord each day. If you choose to invest some of your precious time in a gnostic work, that is time that you will no longer have available to read, say... My Jesus by Cardinal Schonborn, or Meeting Jesus and Following Him by Cardinal Arinze, or the encyclicals from Popes of recent memory, or the works of G.K. Chesterton, or the works of the Carmelite mystics, the Rhineland mystics, the works of the Pope Emeritus back when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, the works of C.S. Lewis, the various works available on Catholic Social Teaching, such as the Compendium thereof, or the Catechism itself, or... wait for it... how about spending time with Scripture? Granted, I've managed somehow in this post to climb up onto a soapbox. But I think this is an important point. Your instinct to pity Judas demonstrates that you are a compassionate person - but I think nunsense has provide us with a no-nonsense response that is the best answer at which we poor humans can arrive in this life! Compassion is good - but it must always be informed by truth. Fill your mind with truth! Read the Gospels! :) End rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) "Woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born." Matthew 26:24 "None of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.†John 17:12 “Poor Judas! Above seventeen hundred years have elapsed since he has been in Hell, and his Hell is still only beginning.†Preparation for Death, St. Alphonsus Is it not a matter of Church doctrine that we do not know for certain if any one is in hell? Is that not why Hans Von Urs Balthasar wrote his Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved? Methinks I know where J.K.Rowling got her ideas. ;) That plot sounds awfully familiar! Without intending any slight toward JR, I have to respectfully advise against his suggestion. If you're going to read anything gnostic, I'd wear a hazmat suit. As a source text for the historical time in which it was written and the community for whom it was intended, there is interest and value and if you are a scholar and that is your research area, read away. As a tool for prayerful reflection or theological reasoning, I would recommend finding material from within the Catholic tradition, or at least compatible with the Catholic tradition, to avoid the hazard to your personal formation and faith that materials from heretical groups can cause. Gnosticism is a heresy. Why dabble in its writings? My suggestion was intended to be value-neutral. It was merely my suggestion that if s/he is partial to this line of thought, then the Gospel of Judas is an interesting resource to further thinking. I am training to be a professor/academic, so I need to remain quite neutral when it comes to ideology. While I am a Marxist, it is my job to provide students with the resources to be the best libertarians, or conservatives if that is the path they wish to travel upon. For me personally, Gnosticism is predicated upon two fundamental theologies that I vehemently disagree with: (i.) that salvation is a matter of having the right beliefs/knowledge of the truth; (ii.) that the world is a shadow of the spiritual reality, or a prison that the soul needs to be released from. I tend to believe that Christianity suffers from both of these two defects all too often. Edited October 7, 2013 by John Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 My suggestion was intended to be value-neutral. It was merely my suggestion that if s/he is partial to this line of thought, then the Gospel of Judas is an interesting resource to further thinking. I am training to be a professor/academic, so I need to remain quite neutral when it comes to ideology. While I am a Marxist, it is my job to provide students with the resources to be the best libertarians, or conservatives if that is the path they wish to travel upon. Perhaps, then, between all of us, we have armed Matjay rather well. You have provided value-neutral material that is there for the taking if this suits the direction of exploration that is desired. I believe I mentioned something along the lines of "read away if your purpose is academic." I have provided a few "watch-out's" in the case that the intention is either prayerful reflection or theological reasoning, based on an assumption that Matjay is a Catholic, or is at least seeking the Catholic perspective, given the nature of this board. I stand by my recommendations, as they give context to the actual selection of resource. Matjay is free to discard my thoughts if my assumptions are incorrect or if his/her purpose is different to the parameters I set around my own $0.02. With both of us having laid out our reasoning and assumptions, Matjay is in that much better a place to choose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 One other thing to throw into the mix - recall that in Dante's Inferno, the most intense suffering in the innermost part of hell was reserved for the treacherous. I have to say I remember thinking his characterisation of things was rather harsh, and that his ordering of gravity of different sins was unexpected, upon my first reading. Upon further consideration in light of the nature of the act of betrayal and the interplay between the appetites, the intellect and the will in a decision to act in such a way, I can see there is a certain genius to his insight. Having said that, Dante sure as heck doesn't know the mind of God and neither do any of we! So yeh - I would hardly claim that Dante's work was authoritative as theology, but it does offer some interesting food for thought and reflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matjay Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 If you are interested in this line of thought, you should read the gnostic Gospel of Judas. It has been a long time since I have read the fragments, but from what I remember, it is Jesus who tasks Judas with the special task of betraying him, and asks that he has faith in his command. I have also heard that the betrayal was planned and I have no sympathies for the devil as some have suggested :P. I have stated, that I'm sorry for Judas on the theory of planned betrayal: He did what he was asked for and now he is hated by many, I have also heard a song on the radio about Judas being a greedy, spineless traitor. It seems to me that Judas is the only victim here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 One should not base any theological conclusions on gnostic garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 One should not base any theological conclusions on gnostic garbage. Shouldn't we be re-reading doctrine in light of contemporary culture. :harhar: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Shouldn't we be re-reading doctrine in light of contemporary culture. :harhar: The funny thing is that if you re-read something, you are still reading the same thing. The words have not changed. So sure, we should re-read doctrine every single day. :dance: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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