Benedict Critiques Francis

[Apteka]

?  What in the world are you talking about.  I'm not "engaging in things beyond my measure"  I'm saying that the problem with the Traditional Latin Mass is that it has caused grave division to the point of schism or near schism.  So MAYBE, just MAYBE, Pope Francis knows what the heck he's doing and that Benedict, who has retired and said that he trusted God's will, was completely in the wrong to speak out against a decision Francis made.

 

The Traditional Latin Mass is not the problem. The hierarchs in the Conciliar Church that decided to rashly make alterations to the Mass caused the scandal, controversy, and division we see today. And it's not a schism we're seeing, but an apostasy. Big difference.

[Apotheoun]

There has been a de facto schism (1) in the Roman Church for a long time. In my own experience I have Roman Catholic friends who will not attend mass at certain parishes because they see the liturgies as deficient in varying degrees, while others dislike the older rite (sometimes their disdain even borders on hatred for the so-called "Extraordinary Form"). The Roman Church has a lot of divisions, and I do not see any of them ending any time soon.

 

 

(1) To be more precise there are many different schisms in the Roman Church at the present time.

[Apteka]

I'm surprised there wasn't a great schism over the changes to the liturgy

[blazeingstar]

rebuke ex pope benedict if you wan't to, i'm personally not going there. Leave the vatican politics to the vatican, every lay christian knows that right? or possibly not. Even priests know that, your not a cardinal or bishop, that's how it is unless there is heresy at foot. And there is no heresy here as far as i can see at present, just an opinion. Benedict will be warned if he has done anything heretical.

 

Sometimes I wonder if you're still on something.  Either that, or I'm not being clear enough.

 

I am not a pope, bishop or priest.  I am a layperson.  I've never claimed to be.  I am one who is close to the FFI's and have helped them out on occasion on spiritual, emotional and physical levels.  The FFI's are good, holy men who do not want to be swept up in controversy and atlest to the public...even the public they are close to...see the wisdom in the Pope's decision.

 

Ironically, I see those who don't see it, and they are with only a few exceptions, lay people.  They are happy to throw anti-Francis, anti-ordinary form Mass fuel on the fire.

 

My statement is thus.  I am disappointed that Benedict would make such a statement.  Regardless of my feelings on the wrongness of his statement, I do feel that it will cause pain, and separation, in the church community.

[Apteka]

 

My statement is thus.  I am disappointed that Benedict would make such a statement.  Regardless of my feelings on the wrongness of his statement, I do feel that it will cause pain, and separation, in the church community.

 

Vatican II caused pain and separation

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

 

 

My statement is thus.  I am disappointed that Benedict would make such a statement.  Regardless of my feelings on the wrongness of his statement, I do feel that it will cause pain, and separation, in the church community.

 

 

Then perhaps you think the church weaker then she is.

[Apotheoun]

I'm surprised there wasn't a great schism over the changes to the liturgy

Again, there is a de facto schism already on that issue, but one reason that it has not been worse is that Roman Catholics have - as a matter of custom - simply done whatever the hierarchy commanded. That attitude of submission took a hit with all the dissent that surrounded Pope Paul VI's promulgation of Humanae Vitae. In fact, that dissent involved parts of the hierarchy itself, along with theologians and religious, and eventually even some members of the lay faithful. 

Edited October 3, 2013 by Apotheoun

[blazeingstar]

With all do respect, we don't know what Benedict said since we don't have his original words, rather, we have hearsay ("a visitor reported Benedict saying...") And even if it were true, so what? Francis has been publically saying all sorts of things that are very divisive and contradictory.

 

I'm taking this article at face value.  That's it.

 

 

The Traditional Latin Mass is not the problem. The hierarchs in the Conciliar Church that decided to rashly make alterations to the Mass caused the scandal, controversy, and division we see today. And it's not a schism we're seeing, but an apostasy. Big difference.

 

So call it an apostocy.  In that case the TLM would be on the "wrong" side of this battle as it's not the Ordinary Form.  However, I believe accusing TLM'ers of true schism at this point is way out of line, never mind apostocy.

 

 

There has been a de facto schism (1) in the Roman Church for a long time. In my own experience I have Roman Catholic friends who will not attend mass at certain parishes because they see the liturgies as deficient in varying degrees, while others dislike the older rite (sometimes their disdain even borders on hatred for the so-called "Extraordinary Form"). The Roman Church has a lot of divisions, and I do not see any of them ending any time soon.

 

 

(1) To be more precise there are many different schisms in the Roman Church at the present time.

 

 

Yep, unfortunatly, I've found the TLM's tend to be more combative whilst the OF'er be more arrogant.  I also find the TLM'ers who are more aggressive tend to be very young, whilst the OF'ers who are willfully deny that TLM is still a Mass to be old and full of prejudice.

 

Since they are old, I don't worry nearly as much about their attitudes.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Vatican II caused pain and separation

 

caused you perhaps.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Again, there is a de facto schism already on that issue, but one reason that it has not been worse is that Roman Catholics have - as a matter of custom - simply done whatever the hierarchy commanded. That attitude of submission took a hit with all the dissent that surrounded Pope Paul VI's promulgation of Humanae Vitae. In fact, that dissent involved parts of the hierarchy itself, along with theologians and religious, and eventually even some members of the lay faithful. 

 

 

happens sometimes, schisms small and large, get over it and stop trying to make holy roman catholics doubt. Jesus " hell will never overcome the church." he never said it won't try.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[blazeingstar]

Then perhaps you think the church weaker then she is.

 

Perhaps.

 

But I also know that in my area less than 2% of the people who attend church weekly are between the ages of 18-35.  (about 20% for our dioceses compared to the 33-35% national average).  

 

I live in a controversial, opinionated, liberal, area that's basically satin's armpit.  

[Apotheoun]

caused you perhaps.

I do not think that Apteka is the only person who has experienced pain due to the theological modernism that followed in the wake of Vatican II.

[Apotheoun]

Perhaps.

 

But I also know that in my area less than 2% of the people who attend church weekly are between the ages of 18-35.  (about 20% for our dioceses compared to the 33-35% national average).  

 

I live in a controversial, opinionated, liberal, area that's basically satin's armpit.  

In the Diocese of Oakland mass attendance is low, and some of the masses are hard to recognize as Roman Catholic masses.

[Apteka]

So call it an apostocy.  In that case the Traditional Latin Mass would be on the "wrong" side of this battle as it's not the Ordinary Form.  However, I believe accusing Traditional Latin Mass'ers of true schism at this point is way out of line, never mind apostocy.

 

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the changes to the Latin Mass are not justified? If the Pope told you to reject the Trinity would you do it? Think about it.

 

Yep, unfortunatly, I've found the Traditional Latin Masses tend to be more combative whilst the OF'er be more arrogant.  I also find the Traditional Latin Mass'ers who are more aggressive tend to be very young, whilst the OF'ers who are willfully deny that Traditional Latin Mass is still a Mass to be old and full of prejudice.

 

[Apotheoun]

I live in a controversial, opinionated, liberal, area that's basically satin's armpit.  

It sounds like you live in the SF Bay Area.   :evil: