HisChildForever Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Premise: Pope Francis and the conciliar hierarchs under him do not believe the church has a mission to convert others to Catholicism. The current mission is to foster dialogue, build bridges, and encourage people to seek their own personal goodness. If a person's conscience urges them to become Catholic, that is acceptable, however efforts are not to be made to actively seek out conversion. The conscience of a person must be respected, and person who sincerely follows their conscience has hope of salvation even if they are outside of the Catholic Church. Issue: This contradicts nearly two millennia of Catholic theology and self understanding. It reflects the views of modernism which were condemned by Pope Pius IX. Conclusion: The contemporary conciliar church has contradicted previous magisterial teaching, and has publically taught doctrinal error (best case scenario) or even heresy (worst case scenario.) As a Catholic, it's just been my impression that on paper the Church is strict but "in person" not so much. Or rather when I see the "paper" translated to the "person." I don't know, as I get older, meet new people, have more experiences, I'm having a hard time seeing things as black-and-white as I used to. Or rather once I sort of removed myself from the bubble of Catholic internets I see things in a softer, more compassionate light. And I don't mean to insult anyone who's actively into the blogs and forums, it's just been my experience. I guess I got caught up in the excitement and forgot how complex the world and people are. I'm still Catholic through and through, and I'm utterly in love with my faith, this I wouldn't have any other way. But yeah I get what Pope Francis is trying to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Christianity is a black and white religion, it's either heaven or hell, true or false, life or death. I agree though, to genuinely live Catholicism in our contemporary Western culture is extremely difficult. I disagree. Not all Christian churches teach the same thing at all. And although Catholicism has certain teachings that are definitely black or white, right or wrong, etc there are also a lot of areas where one's conscience is involved, and this creates a few grey areas. To err on the side of love is more desirable than to be so black and white that one loses all humanity. Even Christ broke a few rules along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Is Catholicism necessary? Apparently the answer is no, it falls under a "grey area". Said like a true black and white thinker. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 The Catholic magisterium thinks in black and white... at least it did. Yes, I already pointed that out. You didn't read my post clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I disagree. Not all Christian churches teach the same thing at all. And although Catholicism has certain teachings that are definitely black or white, right or wrong, etc there are also a lot of areas where one's conscience is involved, and this creates a few grey areas. To err on the side of love is more desirable than to be so black and white that one loses all humanity. Even Christ broke a few rules along the way. Yes, it seems there are caveats all over Catholicism. Examples include -- salvation for non-Catholic Christians/non-Christians, the very make-up of mortal sin (what's a mortal sin for one person isn't necessarily a mortal sin for another). I think our religion is a very complex one, and acknowledges that the human person and experience is very complex. You can't fit everyone into a neat little box, and I don't for a second believe that you can do this with Catholicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Both of you espouse modernism And yet you are the one who claims to be spiritual and not religious??? Hmmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 To be Roman Catholic is untenable So who's the modernist? I don't find being a Roman Catholic untenable at all. What is black and white, is black and white, what is grey is grey. One of the things I love so much about the Roman Catholic Church is that it allows for faith and reason both. Perhaps you don't fully understand her? Just wondering .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 It depends upon how you define being "Roman Catholic." A Roman Catholic of today has little in common with a Roman Catholic of a century ago. Even the liturgy celebrated by the majority of Roman Catholics today is new, and a Roman Catholic of a century ago would be shocked by the present celebration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Both of you espouse modernism How? Just look in the Catechism -- I apologize for not citing or thoroughly explaining my examples. Just look at what the Catechism says about non-Catholic Christians: 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Heck look what the Catechism says about Muslims: 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330 Based on the theology I've read, which isn't all that extensive/advanced/scholarly, the only religious "group" the Church really puts in the red zone are Catholics who know the faith through-and-through yet leave the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 (edited) There is no real spiritual relationship with Islam. With Muslims as human beings there is a spiritual connection, but that connection is not caused by their Islamic "faith"; instead, it is brought about by our common humanity, because all human beings are called to be conformed to Christ through the reception of the Holy Mysteries, and so all human beings are in potency to membership in the Church. Edited October 15, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 There is no real spiritual relationship with Islam. With Muslims as human beings there is a spiritual connection, but that connection is not caused by their Islamic "faith"; instead, it is brought about by our common humanity, because all human beings are called to be conformed to Christ through the reception of the Holy Mysteries, and so all human beings are in potency to membership in the Church. The Catechism addresses Muslims in the context of their faith though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 (edited) The Catechism addresses Muslims in the context of their faith though. And thankfully Catholics are not bound to believe everything promulgated by a council or found in a catechism with divine and Catholic faith. Can the Magisterium of the Church positively say anything about Islam that is binding upon anyone? No, because the Magisterium is bound to teach only that which has been divinely revealed or which is intimately bound to divine revelation as a part of the moral law. Edited October 15, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Is the god of Islam the true God? I suppose you can answer yes if you believe that God created both good and evil, but I don't believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 (edited) Islam explicitly denies both the Incarnation and the Trinity, so if their faith is what connects them to the Catholic Church then Catholics had best start questioning their own faith and find a Church that believes in the incarnation of the Son of God, while worshipping the Holy Trinity. Edited October 15, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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