Apteka Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Premise: Pope Francis and the conciliar hierarchs under him do not believe the church has a mission to convert others to Catholicism. The current mission is to foster dialogue, build bridges, and encourage people to seek their own personal goodness. If a person's conscience urges them to become Catholic, that is acceptable, however efforts are not to be made to actively seek out conversion. The conscience of a person must be respected, and person who sincerely follows their conscience has hope of salvation even if they are outside of the Catholic Church. Issue: This contradicts nearly two millennia of Catholic theology and self understanding. It reflects the views of modernism which were condemned by Pope Pius IX. Conclusion: The contemporary conciliar church has contradicted previous magisterial teaching, and has publically taught doctrinal error (best case scenario) or even heresy (worst case scenario.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 [attachment=3208:catwatermelon.jpg] premise is based on an outrageously broad reactionary conclusion to a few words in an interview, an interpretation that would make a whole bunch of the Pope's homilies make no sense, that would make his Encyclical Letter Lumen Fidei make no sense (and yes Benedict penned much of it, but Francis didn't have to publish it, but he did so in his own name) come back to me when Pope Francis actually says what you think he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 our own Phatmass correspondent, Aloysius, was able to get himself into a recent Vatican press conference and ask a question of the Pope. Here's what happened when he got to ask his question... Aloysius: "Hey Pope Francis, pass me that slice of pie" Pope Francis: "Aloysius, be assured, I'm not trying to pass you that pie right now. While I'd like you to have a slice of pie, it's solemn nonsense to go around trying to pass out pies in the middle of a press conference, it'd also be solemn nonsense to trick people into eating a pie, to force feed a pie to someone, to go around throwing pies in everyone's faces to try to get them to eat it, or to feed someone a pie with the intention of getting them fat so they'll be tastier for the dragon you're feeding them to" You heard it here first, folks, Pope Francis is totally against pies. Shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Sometimes Al when you talk about Pope Francis' interviews and then mention his homilies you make it sound like Pope Francis is two different people. Perhaps the Pope should refrain from giving interviews since he apparently is incapable of conveying the same message in the interviews that he presents in his homilies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 it's only because you refuse to understand the words he uses the way he and most theologians define them as these days that you think he's not saying the same thing in the interviews as he is in the homilies. whether his message is clear in these interviews I'll leave as an open question, you may certainly be right that he's not getting his message out well enough in these interviews. but we should also take into account that Fr. Lombardi, the Vatican Spokesman, just said people should be cautious and not treat the interviewer's account of the interview as a full and precise representation of what the Pope actually said. it's entirely possible that he said quite a bit more in the interview, and if I had to guess I'd imagine he said the kinds of things he has been constantly saying in his homilies... there will, of course, never be any accounting for the media and how they'll present something to people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 it's only because you refuse to understand the words he uses the way he and most theologians define them as these days that you think he's not saying the same thing in the interviews as he is in the homilies. whether his message is clear in these interviews I'll leave as an open question, you may certainly be right that he's not getting his message out well enough in these interviews. but we should also take into account that Fr. Lombardi, the Vatican Spokesman, just said people should be cautious and not treat the interviewer's account of the interview as a full and precise representation of what the Pope actually said. it's entirely possible that he said quite a bit more in the interview, and if I had to guess I'd imagine he said the kinds of things he has been constantly saying in his homilies... there will, of course, never be any accounting for the media and how they'll present something to people. Al, I'm reading the pope's interviews and it is not my fault that he cannot convey his message in a way that conforms to Catholic doctrine. What he says in the most recent interview about conscience is simply false. I have re-read (twice) Cardinal Ratzinger's essay on conscience that I linked to in another thread, and there really is no way to conform what Francis says to what Cardinal Ratzinger said. Francis holds a viewpoint that is - quite frankly - condemned as false in the speech by Ratzinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Sometimes Al when you talk about Pope Francis' interviews and then mention his homilies you make it sound like Pope Francis is two different people. Perhaps the Pope should refrain from giving interviews since he apparently is incapable of conveying the same message in the interviews that he presents in his homilies. I thought that homilies and interviews were two different things. Should an interview be worded in the same way as homily? If people read his interviews and his homilies I don't think that there would be a problem in understanding him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I thought that homilies and interviews were two different things. Should an interview be worded in the same way as homily? If people read his interviews and his homilies I don't think that there would be a problem in understanding him. The message should be the same, and yet Pope Francis seems to have trouble doing that, and not just on issues related to conversion, but conscience, liturgy, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 By the way, for whatever reason, the Vatican has posted the recent interview by Mr. Scalfari with Pope Francis as a "speech of Pope Francis." Even Fr. Z found that strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 The message should be the same, and yet Pope Francis seems to have trouble doing that, and not just on issues related to conversion, but conscience, liturgy, etc. I fail to see how the basic message is not the same. The media is twisting the Pope's words to mean something else. "There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) Pope Francis, for example in relation to conscience, gives a position that could easily be identified as relativist in the interview, while in the homily quoted by Aloysius he presents a position that is much closer to that endorsed by Catholic tradition. It would be helpful if the Pope gave the same message in both venues, and if he cannot do that, then he should stop giving interviews to atheist editors and other secular media outlets. The majority of people (Catholic and non-Catholic) are not going to do a bunch of research to see if what Pope Francis said in the interview is accurate; instead, they are going to accept what he says in the interviews he gives at face value, and that will mean that large numbers of people will come away with a distorted view of Catholicism. Germain Grisez has said much the same thing in his letter to Dr. Moynihan's website. Edited October 5, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I simply do not find a contradiction between an inclusivist orientation and the idea of conversion, so I find it difficult to be piqued by Pope Francis' words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 I simply do not find a contradiction between an inclusivist orientation and the idea of conversion, so I find it difficult to be piqued by Pope Francis' words. To actively seek the conversion of others means you must feel your view is somehow superior to another persons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 To actively seek the conversion of others means you must feel your view is somehow superior to another persons. That is politically incorrect. Shame on anyone who thinks that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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