Another Pope Francis Interview, Strap On Your Seat Belts!

[Apteka]

Your Holiness, is there is a single vision of the Good? And who decides what it is?

“Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good.”

 

Your Holiness you wrote that in your letter to me. The conscience is autonomous, you said, and everyone must obey his conscience. I think that’s one of the most courageous steps taken by a Pope.

“And I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”

 

 

You see Apotheoun, the concept of "conversion" in Francis' worldview is simply illogical. Each of us has their own vision of good and evil. The Church's goal is to encourage people to move towards what they think is good.

 

Edited October 1, 2013 by Apteka

[Apotheoun]

I'm not trying to put the pope's interview on trial either. I am asking questions. People keep saying that Pope Francis is not denigrating "evangelism" but he seems to be attacking the concept of conversion itself, and even says he has no interest in trying to convert his atheist interviewer. That seems odd to me, so in response to the constant references to his support of "evangelism" I have asked for some evidence of this in the interview.

[Apteka]

I'm not trying to put the pope's interview on trial, I'm trying to find out what he's trying to say, and when he talks about the same themes in homilies as came out in a little snippet of an interview, one can imagine the little snippet was along the same lines of what he's said in homilies already.  did he perfectly explain himself in this interview (or, to be more accurate, in this account/transcript of this interview)?  probably not... that's a criticism for his clarity, not a criticism that says he doesn't want to evangelize and he's okay if people don't have faith in Christ, as he's decidedly pointed out numerous times he wishes to promote faith in Christ (as if that should be news for the Pope)
 

 

Aloysius, at some point one must admit that Pope Francis is to be taken at face value. He isn't being vague, it's just that what he is saying is foreign to traditional Catholicism.

[Apotheoun]

You see Apotheoun, the concept of "conversion" in Francis' worldview is simply illogical. Each of us has their own vision of good and evil. The Church's goal is to encourage people to move towards what they think is good.

I am concerned, because I find the interviews given by the Pope problematic. We are talking about the salvation of souls here. I do not see how asking questions, which seems to be upsetting many people, is a bad thing. Believe me I want to find a way to understand Pope Francis in an orthodox light, because I have invested a great deal of my life in the Catholic Church, and even helped in the conversion of my mother. I wonder if the Pope would have liked that I helped convert my mom to Byzantine Catholicism. Based on the interview I may have done something that he sees as "solemn nonsense."

Edited October 1, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apteka]

I am concerned, because I find the interviews given by the Pope problematic. We are talking about the salvation of souls here. 

 

The Vatican no long speaks of salvation, rather, brotherhood..

 

"The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood."

 

 

[John Ryan]

I reject Apteka's premise that if the Church does not act exclusionary then it loses all its reason for being. 

[Aloysius]

except he constantly talks about evangelization, he does talk about conversion.  if you think conversion doesn't make sense in his worldview, then a whole bunch of his writings and homilies must not make any sense to him... seems the only barometer for his worldview is this interview he did with an atheist.

 

I don't think his position came off all that well in the interview, but in the context of what he's said on the same themes before, it is clear that the distinctions I've been talking about are the kinds of distinctions he's been trying to make.  he wants to promote people following their conscience, he wants to promote evangalization and faith in Christ, he thinks there's a harmful version of attempts at conversion that he uses the label "proselytization" for, as do most theologians these days regardless of whether you want to defend the original greek root of the word or not, and he's trying to navigate between those positions.  the doom and gloom that pretends he doesn't want people to come to Christ is complete nonsense.

[arfink]

And thus the Catholic concept of both/and is put to death.

 

I don't think that calling everyone to obey their consciences necessitates a turning from the practice of the proper formation of conscience, nor do I think it necessitates abandoning the idea that the Church's teachings provide everything that is necessary for salvation.

[Apotheoun]

I reject Apteka's premise that if the Church does not act exclusionary then it loses all its reason for being. 

If Protestantism is a means of salvation along with Catholicism, then my conversion in 1988 was "solemn nonsense," and I might as well have remained Protestant. I left Protestantism (or to be more precise Episcopalianism) because it is in error, and I discovered the truth, which is found fully only in the Catholic Church. If I could have been saved and had the kind of spiritual life Christ calls all men to in the Episcopal Church then I shouldn't have worried about converting. I should have done what the first priest I met with told me to do and just be the best Episcopalian I can be. But I did not accept what he said, and instead sought out another priest and he helped me to convert to Catholicism. Was that all "solemn nonsense"?

[Aloysius]

The Vatican no long speaks of salvation, rather, brotherhood..

 

"The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood."

 

 

 

 

patently and absurdly FALSE

http://gsearch.vatican.va/search?client=default_frontend&site=default_collection&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&filter=0&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&exclude_apps=1&ulang=en&as_q=salvation&num=10&btnG=Search+on+www.vatican.va&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_lq=&ip=193.190.253.144&access=p&entqr=3&entqrm=0&entsp=a__policy_documenti&ud=1&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1

[Apteka]

I reject Apteka's premise that if the Church does not act exclusionary then it loses all its reason for being. 

 

John, I'm not saying the Church has to be exclusionary, but the Church has to be herself. If she is nothing more than a mouthpiece for modernism and endorser of contemporary Western culture, well... what's the point? I'm fine as I am seeking out what I personally find to be good, and I'm glad Francis is there to tap me on my shoulder.

[Apotheoun]

I suppose I will have to work out all of this on my own since the questions I am asking are seen as "trolling" by many.

[arfink]

I find it amusing that many will gladly latch onto the pope's comments given in interviews as proof that the Church is corrupting her own teachings. Didn't anybody teach you guys about the magisterium?

[Apteka]

patently and absurdly FALSE

http://gsearch.vatican.va/search?client=default_frontend&site=default_collection&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&filter=0&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&exclude_apps=1&ulang=en&as_q=salvation&num=10&btnG=Search+on+www.vatican.va&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_lq=&ip=193.190.253.144&access=p&entqr=3&entqrm=0&entsp=a__policy_documenti&ud=1&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1

 

What's there to be saved from, Aloysius. We're to seek what we personally feel to be good, and avoid what we personally feel is evil. As long as we sincerely follow our conscience we have hope of making it to heaven.

[Aloysius]

again, the Pope did not call conversion solemn nonsense, he called "proselyticism" solemn nonsense, and it's been clearly demonstrated to you what is currently meant by the term.  you are right about its historic meaning, but as the 2007 CDF document points out, the term proselyticism is now used to refer to attempts to convert through means or motives that are not inspired by the gospel.  if you have a better word for that, by all means use it, and understand that when Pope Francis uses the world proselyticism, that's what he's saying (as is almost every other theologian, including Patriarch Bartholomew, when they use the term).