Another Pope Francis Interview, Strap On Your Seat Belts!

[Vincent Vega]

Unrelated:

[Guest]

I bet you there will be more then person who was agnostic/atheist in this life in heaven...I don't wish not having Faith in God on anyone....My life without God wouldn't be worth living....It would be empty...

*more then one person

[arfink]

Yes, and the Church is also reforming it's medieval dogmas, such as the transubstantiation and trinity. These doctrines are no longer applicable to the modern person.

 

I think you may not be the troll Phatmass wants, but you're definitely the troll Phatmass deserves.

[Aloysius]

he used the word "evangelize" in contradistinction to "proselytize" in a homily before this interview, I am drawing on that homily to bring context to what I think he is trying to say here.   I have not found a text of the homily, though, only an article but it did quote him as using the word evangelize and saying it was not the same as proslytizing.

 

there's a subtlety to what I'm trying to say about the "intention to convert"... I'm tying it more into the kinds of insincerity people have when their primary aim is to convince someone of doctrine, rather than having their primary aim to be to share the love of God and have a discussion in which one truly listens sincerely.  it's insincere if your main intention is to convert someone... think about what the English definition of the word "pontificate" is... I guess what I'm gathering from the context of this, looking at the pope's homilies where he's touched upon this same theme, etc, is that there's a particular type of "intention to convert" that amounts to basically preaching AT someone when one might as well be shouting at a brick wall, because you're not really engaging them in a sincere way, you're not really displaying the love of Christ, you're just trying to convince them of something.  it's the kind of thing that leads Mormons towards a doctrine of doublespeak, the sort of ends-justify-the-means converting that's at the extreme end of the spectrum of "intention to convert"...  I guess another extreme end of the spectrum of "intention to convert" that could be contrasted with "evangelize" is the Conquistadors, the Conquistadors had an intention to convert, the missionaries that tried to protect them from the conquistadors with conversion were really sincerely evangelizing... there are kinds of intentions to convert that are really problematic... somewhere between what the Pope was saying and the ends don't justify the means, there's something to be said here.

 

it's hard to find the right language to illustrate the point, though, which is why the pope's words have become a bit more controversial than they need to be (and if you look at the context of the homily where he said we should evangelize rather than proselytize, I think it's clear he is trying to get at something somewhere around what I'm trying to say).... I can't think of what better way to say it, and I'm not sure I've adequately described it here even, but there is a serious point to be made here that's not inconsequential... there's a whole generation out there that knows how to turn off when they're getting insincerely pontificated to, and we need to be able to to sincerely evangelize in love instead of the kind of solemn nonsense that shuts them off.

 

basically if I'm talking to an Atheist, I'm going to feel perfectly comfortable saying "listen, I'm not 'trying to convert you', i'm interested in having a sincere discussion, I hope I can share my faith with you and you can one day embrace it yourself, but it's not about me TRYING to CONVERT you, to CONVINCE you, to PROSELYTIZE you, it's about a sincere discussion, a sincere friendship, sincere love, etc"

[Era Might]

he used the word "evangelize" in contradistinction to "proselytize" in a homily before this interview, I am drawing on that homily to bring context to what I think he is trying to say here.   I have not found a text of the homily, though, only an article but it did quote him as using the word evangelize and saying it was not the same as proslytizing.

 

 

 

3. The work of evangelization often finds obstacles, not only externally, but also from within the ecclesial community. Sometimes there is lack of fervour, joy, courage and hope in proclaiming the Message of Christ to all and in helping the people of our time to an encounter with him. Sometimes, it is still thought that proclaiming the truth of the Gospel means an assault on freedom. Paul VI speaks eloquently on this: "It would be... an error to impose something on the consciences of our brethren. But to propose to their consciences the truth of the Gospel and salvation in Jesus Christ, with complete clarity and with total respect for free options which it presents... is a tribute to this freedom" (Evangelii Nuntiandi, 80). We must always have the courage and the joy of proposing, with respect, an encounter with Christ, and being heralds of his Gospel. Jesus came among us to show us the way of salvation and he entrusted to us the mission to make it known to all to the ends of the earth. All too often, we see that it is violence, lies and mistakes that are emphasized and proposed. It is urgent in our time to announce and witness to the goodness of the Gospel, and this from within the Church itself. It is important never to forget a fundamental principle for every evangelizer: one cannot announce Christ without the Church. Evangelization is not an isolated individual or private act; it is always ecclesial. Paul VI wrote, "When an unknown preacher, catechist or Pastor, preaches the Gospel, gathers the little community together, administers a Sacrament, even alone, he is carrying out an ecclesial act." He acts not "in virtue of a mission which he attributes to himself or by a personal inspiration, but in union with the mission of the Church and in her name" (ibid. 60). And this gives strength to the mission and makes every missionary and evangelizer feel never alone, but part of a single Body animated by the Holy Spirit.

 

4. In our era, the widespread mobility and facility of communication through new media have mingled people, knowledge, experience. For work reasons, entire families move from one continent to another; professional and cultural exchanges, tourism, and other phenomena have also led to great movements of peoples. This makes it difficult, even for the parish community, to know who lives permanently or temporarily in the area. More and more, in large areas of what were traditionally Christian regions, the number of those who are unacquainted with the faith, or indifferent to the religious dimension or animated by other beliefs, is increasing. Therefore it is not infrequent that some of the baptized make lifestyle choices that lead them away from faith, thus making them need a "new evangelization". To all this is added the fact that a large part of humanity has not yet been reached by the good news of Jesus Christ. We also live in a time of crisis that touches various sectors of existence, not only the economy, finance, food security, or the environment, but also those involving the deeper meaning of life and the fundamental values that animate it. Even human coexistence is marked by tensions and conflicts that cause insecurity and difficulty in finding the right path to a stable peace. In this complex situation, where the horizon of the present and future seems threatened by menacing clouds, it is necessary to proclaim courageously and in very situation, the Gospel of Christ, a message of hope, reconciliation, communion, a proclamation of God's closeness, his mercy, his salvation, and a proclamation that the power of God’s love is able to overcome the darkness of evil and guide us on the path of goodness. The men and women of our time need the secure light that illuminates their path and that only the encounter with Christ can give. Let us bring to the world, through our witness, with love, the hope given by faith! The Church’s missionary spirit is not about proselytizing, but the testimony of a life that illuminates the path, which brings hope and love. The Church – I  repeat once again – is not a relief organization, an enterprise or an NGO, but a community of people, animated by the Holy Spirit, who have lived and are living the wonder of the encounter with Jesus Christ and want to share this experience of deep joy, the message of salvation that the Lord gave us. It is the Holy Spirit who guides the Church in this path.

 

--Message of Pope Francis for World Mission Day 2013

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/messages/missions/documents/papa-francesco_20130519_giornata-missionaria2013_en.html

Edited October 1, 2013 by Era Might

[Era Might]

Also, thrown in for good measure:

 

"The Orthodox Church does not seek to proselytize. It simply exists and has a door open to all who wish to be informed about her."

 

--Greetings of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew to Upon His Arrival in Hamilton, Ontario and Reception by His Worship, Bob Morrow the Mayor of Hamilton

 

http://www.patriarchate.org/documents/hamilton-greetings#sthash.oDitaL6c.dpuf

[Aloysius]

there we go, but this is the one I was talking about: http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/papa-el-papa-pope-24654/

 

 

Francis explained that Paul acted this way because “this is the way” of Jesus who “spoke with everyone,” “with sinners, publicans, teachers of the law.” “The Christian who would bring the Gospel must go down this road: [must] listen to everyone! But now is a good time in the life of the Church: the last 50 or 60 years have been a good time - for I remember when as a child one would hear in Catholic families, in my family, ‘No, we cannot go to their house, because they are not married in the Church, eh!’. It was as an exclusion. No, you could not go! Neither could we go to [the houses of] socialists or atheists. Now, thank God, people do not say such things, right? [Such an attitude] was a defence of the faith, but it was one of walls: the LORD made bridges. Paul, therefore, “follows the attitude of Jesus. Second, Paul is aware that he must evangelize, not proselytize.”
 
 

The Church – Francis continued, quoting his predecessor Benedict XVI â€“  “does not grow by means of proselytizing," but “by attraction, by witnessing, by preaching.”

 

“Christians who are afraid to build bridges and prefer to build walls are Christians who are not sure of their faith, not sure of Jesus Christ.” "Paul – the Pope went on to say – teaches us this journey of evangelization, because Jesus did, because he is well aware that evangelization is not proselytizing: it is because he is sure of Jesus Christ and does not need to justify himself [or] to seek reasons to justify himself. When the Church loses this apostolic courage, she becomes a stalled Church, a tidy Church a nice, a Church that is nice to look at, but that is without fertility, because she has lost the courage to go to the outskirts, where there are many people who are victims of idolatry, worldliness of weak thought, [of] so many things.”
 

 

So yeah, the Pope wants us to evangelize the way St. Paul did, he considers the actions of St. Paul to have not been "proselytizing" in this context.  Also, a 2007 note from the CDF Instruction on Some Aspects of Evangelization defines proselytization as such:

 

 

 

More recently, however, the term has taken on a negative connotation, to mean the promotion of a religion by using means, [like I said, ends don't justify the means] and for motives, contrary to the spirit of the Gospel; that is, which do not safeguard the freedom and dignity of the human person. (emphasis added)

 

[Apotheoun]

Jesus didn't begin every conversation that way. Sometimes he just said, "Follow me." Sometimes he said, "I have been sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." To have a conversation is to invite someone to an exchange of ideas. If there is no possibility of people learning and changing (including yourself), then it makes the conversation pointless. But the idea of wanting to "convert" someone makes conversation impossible, it becomes just a one-sided monologue (not unlike the Jehovah's Witnesses). When someone says "I disagree with you," then sometimes the best thing is to say, "Ok, now let's eat." Not everything has to be about converting someone...and yet, in sitting down to eat with them, you are doing a lot more than talking at them.

True, He just began His ministry with those words and then spoke of repentance around 30 additional times. Historically speaking repentance (i.e., conversion - metanoia in the Greek) is central to the Gospel, and by the way, when Christ asked people to "follow Him" that also was an intentional act and one that required a change in that person's life (i.e., conversion).

Edited October 1, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Also, thrown in for good measure:

Oh my, Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't like the word "proselytism" either, well good thing I'm not Greek Orthodox.

[Apotheoun]

I see no reason to demonize the word "proselyte" just because Pope Francis wants to. Although his use of it, in response to a question by the interviewer about "conversion" still is problematic. From the context Francis seems to be opposed to both proselytism and conversion.

[Apotheoun]

It is nice that Pope Francis mentions "evangelism" in some homilies, but I still haven't found it mentioned in the interview in connection with the interviewer's question about conversion.

[Aloysius]

he didn't invent the demonization of proslytization, it's not been in vogue in theological schools for quite some time, not just liberal ones, just in general theological discourse it's had that meaning that I pointed out the CDF described it as having in that 2007 document.

[Apotheoun]

I think you may not be the troll Phatmass wants, but you're definitely the troll Phatmass deserves.

Ah, the troll attacks yet again. Is it any wonder that there have not been any real theological debates at Phatmass for a long time. Was Budge a troll? Yeah, she was, but I have not seen Apteka act like a troll. Just because a person disagrees with you it does not follow that they are a troll.

[Apotheoun]

he didn't invent the demonization of proslytization, it's not been in vogue in theological schools for quite some time, not just liberal ones, just in general theological discourse it's had that meaning that I pointed out the CDF described it as having in that 2007 document.

I did not say he did. Vatican II did that, but why do I have to agree with Vatican II on that topic. The Greek word "proselyte" / "proselytism" does not bear a negative meaning in the original language so I see no reason to understand it in that way.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

It is nice that Pope Francis mentions "evangelism" in some homilies, but I still haven't found it mentioned in the interview in connection with the interviewer's question about conversion.

 

I'm not trying to put the pope's interview on trial, I'm trying to find out what he's trying to say, and when he talks about the same themes in homilies as came out in a little snippet of an interview, one can imagine the little snippet was along the same lines of what he's said in homilies already.  did he perfectly explain himself in this interview (or, to be more accurate, in this account/transcript of this interview)?  probably not... that's a criticism for his clarity, not a criticism that says he doesn't want to evangelize and he's okay if people don't have faith in Christ, as he's decidedly pointed out numerous times he wishes to promote faith in Christ (as if that should be news for the Pope)