Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 ouch. ;) interpretation and spin are two very different things. Your doing what you have to do, interpret these words in a Catholic way, no matter how contrary to traditional Catholic teaching they may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 The problem here is that the Church understood herself a certain way for nearly two thousand years. She was the ark of Noah, a necessity for one's salvation. Since the days of the Apostles she sought to bring others into her fold, not confirm people in their own beliefs. Some of the views Francis espouses appear to be heretical. What we call Roman Catholicism is in it's hay-day, something else, something new is coming to replace it, and it is doing so within the shell of the RC. There was never a "hay-dey." And the church's image of itself has changed wildly through the centuries, from the development of the papacy, to forms of spirituality, to its role in society. By your logic Pope Pius XII was a heretic because he didn't demand on a new Holy Roman Empire. Also, in the (non-existing) hay-day, I'm not sure you'd be very welcome to accuse the Pope of appearing to be heretical. You might get investigated by the Inquisition for something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Didn't JPII and Benedict believe the same? What's concerning here, from a Catholic perspective, is that the Pope's views aren't catholic. I am not saying the Pope's views are non-Catholic. It is a matter of emphasis. So, Pope Benedict XVI was doctrinaire, because he was charged with being the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. It was literally his job for over twenty years to uphold the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. Franciscans and Jesuits are definitively Catholic, but each stress different aspects of the faith. We are one gigantic tent, my friend. Imagine someone walking into Starbucks and starting to preach about angels and demons and the end of the world, or even about fine thoughts about love and peace. That would be solemn nonsense, a farce that wouldn't do much except make the preacher feel good about themselves. It's what Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons do. I think there's a place for solemn nonsense, or holy foolishness. But in general he's just making a basic point which we all recognize in our daily lives...being a Christian does not mean making a fool of yourself with solemn nonsense. For the most part, the way to walk into Starbucks is to get to know the people there, listen to each other, and improve each other's knowledge of the world around you. And within that, there is room for Christ. It is the spirit of celtic evangelism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 There was never a "hay-dey." And the church's image of itself has changed wildly through the centuries, from the development of the papacy, to forms of spirituality, to its role in society. By your logic Pope Pius XII was a heretic because he didn't demand on a new Holy Roman Empire. Also, in the (non-existing) hay-day, I'm not sure you'd be very welcome to accuse the Pope of appearing to be heretical. You might get investigated by the Inquisition for something like that. It's undeniable that the Church is in it's hey-day, the statistics prove that, and the apostasy in the upper echelon of the hierarchy only confirms this. We see a rejection of Dogma and the essence of the Church's mission. She has given up, and although I can no longer call myself a Catholic, it is sad to see the Church one once grew up in in this state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Your doing what you have to do, interpret these words in a Catholic way, no matter how contrary to traditional Catholic teaching they may be. The Roman Catholic Church is a living tradition, it is not dead and ossified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) It's undeniable that the Church is in it's hey-day, the statistics prove that, and the apostasy in the upper echelon of the hierarchy only confirms this. We see a rejection of Dogma and the essence of the Church's mission. She has given up, and although I can no longer call myself a Catholic, it is sad to see the Church one once grew up in in this state. I'm sorry you can no longer call yourself Catholic. I would suggest that you forget about religion for a while and get in touch with the world as it actually exists. Forget about fantasies about some "hey-dey." Just look around you, live, see how people are experiencing the world, and read how Christ walked from city to city, meeting people where they were. Life's too short to get all worked up over fantasies about the past. Christ lives in every corner, even today. Edited October 1, 2013 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 I am not saying the Pope's views are non-Catholic. It is a matter of emphasis. So, Pope Benedict XVI was doctrinaire, because he was charged with being the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. It was literally his job for over twenty years to uphold the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. Franciscans and Jesuits are definitively Catholic, but each stress different aspects of the faith. We are one gigantic tent, my friend. Francis seems to lack doctrine entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazeingstar Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I think he's doing a great job. "I'm not trying to convert you, just hear me out, and I'll hear you out. I'm not here to judge and condemn you but I do believe every human is held to natural law" That's what I hear. And honestly he is putting balm on a sore wound. This is what I hear from atheists and non-Catholics 1) The catholic church is about converting people for money and power 2) The church hates gays 3) the church hates women and wants them to suffer with babies 4) the Catholics killed for their religion in the crusades and would do it again, given the chance. 5) the Catholic church is made of pedophiles. Pope Francis has literally removed all the arguments that people use against the church. Now we can actually operate without being demonized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 I'm sorry you can no longer call yourself Catholic. I would suggest that you forget about religion for a while and get in touch with the world as it actually exists. Forget about fantasies about some "hey-dey." Just look around you, live, see how people are experiencing the world, and read how Christ walked from city to city, meeting people where they were. I'm not sorry about it, and I don't understand why you would be. Roman Catholicism is not essential for my salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I'm not sorry about it, and I don't understand why you would be. Roman Catholicism is not essential for my salvation. What is essential for your salvation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 What is essential for your salvation? Salvation itself may not be essential. We need to be saved from something first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 It's undeniable that the Church is in it's hey-day, the statistics prove that, and the apostasy in the upper echelon of the hierarchy only confirms this. We see a rejection of Dogma and the essence of the Church's mission. She has given up, and although I can no longer call myself a Catholic, it is sad to see the Church one once grew up in in this state. Jesus " hell will never overcome the church." Our Lord never says it won't try at times though. Don't be disheartened Apteka. I didn't like what he said on face value either but then thought about it in greater depth and have said what i said in my last few posts. Hopefully what i posted is true and helps you understand better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Jesus " hell will never overcome the church." Our Lord never says it won't try at times though. Don't be disheartened Apteka. I didn't like what he said on face value either but then thought about it in greater depth and have said what i said in my last few posts. Hopefully what i posted is true and helps you understand better. Tab'le, the Church is overcome, and if you haven't looked in your New American Bible commentary, we don't know if Jesus even said those words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Salvation itself may not be essential. We need to be saved from something first. Do you think we need to be saved from our imperfections, our limitations, our vices, what is called in Catholicism, our sins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Do you think we need to be saved from our imperfections, our limitations, our vices, what is called in Catholicism, our sins? I agree with most spiritual traditions that the state we are born in is not the state we are intended for. Is there a heaven that bars those who never improve? I'm not sure. Does believing in Jesus of Nazareth automatically save you? I don't think so either. Contemporary Catholicism no longer believes in original sin, sin, or salvation anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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