Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 meh... sure I want everyone to convert (so does Francis, he never said otherwise), but there are many instances in life in which I am not trying explicitly to convert someone... does that make me a bad Christian in your eyes? is there no room for sports, weather, friendship, and beer? Francis said he has no intention of converting Mr. Scalfari. So does he not count as part of the human race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 . . . is there no room for sports, weather, friendship, and beer? So to be interested in those things you must separate them from your Christian life. All my friends, Christian and non-Christian, know that I believe in Christ, and my non-Christian friends also know that I desire their conversion. Evidently they don't have the problem that Pope Francis has with intending to convert people to Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 having no intention of converting the man through that interview does not at all mean he doesn't want him to convert! listen, maybe that interview was the perfect opportunity to attempt to convert him and it was a missed opportunity for Pope Francis not to try, I could get that, but to leap from that to the idea that Pope Francis doesn't want the man to ever convert? It's total hogwash. it's not what he said... unless you use the old definition of proselytize that virtually no theologian uses anymore instead of the more commonly used definition that he clearly intended... but he didn't say that he didn't want him to convert, or even that he didn't want to convert him, he said he was not trying to convert him in that interview. When I talk to my non-Catholic friends about baseball, I'm not trying to convert them to Catholicism in my discussion. That doesn't mean my non-Catholic friends don't know my Christian faith or my desire that people convert to Catholicism, it just means that I'm not, in everything I say, trying to convince them into it... sometimes I just talk about baseball and hope the example of my faith remains edifying for them in their journeys in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 let us again not forget that Fr. Lombardi has taken issue with the idea that this account of the interview is the full and precise account of all of the Pope's words, also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 let us again not forget that Fr. Lombardi has taken issue with the idea that this account of the interview is the full and precise account of all of the Pope's words, also. Let's hope that the orthodox part comes out some day. Maybe the Pope should not be giving interviews if the author of the interview can so completely distort what has been said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 let us again not forget that Fr. Lombardi has taken issue with the idea that this account of the interview is the full and precise account of all of the Pope's words, also. Al, it does make me feel a bit better knowing that the Pope disputes the accuracy of the interview. It does not alter the fact that what is recounted in the interview is not representative of Catholic teaching, but it is nice to know that the Pope is trying to distance himself from the interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Penn Jillette, who happens to be an atheist, on proselytizing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owZc3Xq8obk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 of course he's using the old definition of proselytize, which is of course part of the confusion not just for you but for a lot of people, which is why his homily distinguishing proselytizing from evangelizing is very good while this interview has caused a bit of confusion (and I hope he will clarify by speaking the same way he spoke in that homily)... he's not using the definition currently in use by most theologians, but he's definitely right. I actually cited Penn Jillette earlier in the thread, lol, but about a time when he was basically advising atheists not to try to come up with 'what strategy works' as if the merits of the argument didn't stand for themselves, and I think that's the same kind of advice we should give Christians--don't try to conconct some clever strategy for how to convince or convert people, just share your faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Knight, I'd actually like to thank you for posting that bit from Fr. Longenecker, because I still had that window open when I got back to my room and just happened upon this article from him: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2013/10/heres-benedict-helping-francis.html :) incidentally, Pope Francis referenced that Pope Benedict quote about growing by attraction instead of proselytization in the homily I keep pointing to. :smokey: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) of course he's using the old definition of proselytize, which is of course part of the confusion not just for you but for a lot of people, which is why his homily distinguishing proselytizing from evangelizing is very good while this interview has caused a bit of confusion (and I hope he will clarify by speaking the same way he spoke in that homily)... he's not using the definition currently in use by most theologians, but he's definitely right. I actually cited Penn Jillette earlier in the thread, lol, but about a time when he was basically advising atheists not to try to come up with 'what strategy works' as if the merits of the argument didn't stand for themselves, and I think that's the same kind of advice we should give Christians--don't try to conconct some clever strategy for how to convince or convert people, just share your faith. It's not just the use of the word "proselytize," which still means simply to convert someone to a particular faith; instead, I posted the brief video because of what he said. His point is that if you really believe in God then how could you ever not intend to try and convert someone to faith in Him. You must really hate those who you withhold the faith of Christ from, and that is how I see the present situation. I thank God for all those I met in my life who helped to lead me to faith in Christ, even if I am now having doubts about my conversion to Catholicism, an act which some may call "solemn nonsense." Edited October 2, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Apo, have you emailed Penn Jillette, to ask him to convert to the Faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Knight, I'd actually like to thank you for posting that bit from Fr. Longenecker, because I still had that window open when I got back to my room and just happened upon this article from him: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2013/10/heres-benedict-helping-francis.html :) incidentally, Pope Francis referenced that Pope Benedict quote about growing by attraction instead of proselytization in the homily I keep pointing to. :smokey: I read that post as well, and Fr. Longenecker is doing all he can to help Francis, but Francis is not making it easy. Perhaps Pope Francis should think before he speaks, or even take a vow of silence for a period of time. Al, I still want to thank you for pointing out that Pope Francis disputes the accuracy of the recent interview, because it does give me some consolation to know that he is distancing himself from the words attributed to him in the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 It's not just the use of the word "proselytize," which still means simply to convert someone to a particular faith; instead, I posted the brief video because of what he said. His point is that if you really believe in God then how could you ever not intend to try and convert someone to faith in Him. You must really hate those who you withhold the faith of Christ from, and that is how I see the present situation. I thank God for all those I met in my life who helped to lead me to faith in Christ, even if I am now having doubts about my conversion to Catholicism, an act which some may call "solemn nonsense." I agreed with what he said, I said he was right. he was using the term proselytize the way you use it, and not the way Pope Francis, who did NOT call your conversion solemn nonsense, used it. I don't withhold Christ from anyone. I do my best to evangelize people with my words and actions... but if I'm talking baseball, I don't say "hey man, doesn't the Pirates getting to the playoffs after 20 years sort of remind you of Christ's death and resurrection?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) Apo, have you emailed Penn Jillette, to ask him to convert to the Faith? No, but if you want I will. I am not afraid to tell people about faith in Christ, and how that faith has helped me through some really terrible things, e.g., my bout with viral encephalitis that nearly killed me and left me with nerve damage on the left side of my body. I have spoken at Churches and schools about faith before, after all I have been a religion teacher, so I am pretty good and giving talks in front of crowds, but I am also good in one on one discussions. I am willing to go pretty much anywhere to talk about Christ. I used to have conversations with Jews and Muslims at SF State, it is not like I am a man in my early twenties who has barely lived life. I am 50 years old. Ask any of my friends from Franciscan University who have actually met me. You can get in touch with them through Facebook. Edited October 2, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I don't think Pope Francis is afraid to tell people about his faith in Christ either... in fact, he does it on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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