Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 your problem here is that you're taking Pope Francis's position from these interviews alone, and not with the context of his homilies and writings to date. I'm not putting the interview on trial, you have plenty of reasons to think that there is a problem with the interview itself, I'm not saying one way or the other really... but that problem doesn't indicate some seismic shift where the Pope and the Church suddenly doesn't want people to be converted. whether the interviewer who transcribed the interview capitalized the "G" in good starts to make it even more absurd how people are latching on to these particular interview words and drawing broad conclusions about what the Pope means, when the Pope has clearly and definitively said many times that he supports evangelization and conversion. I think that people aren't quite getting what I'm trying to say about "intentions" and "trying", there's nothing wrong with intending or trying, but there can be problems with it in certain contexts... so I will ask, and for the sake of argument please detach these questions in your mind from any judgment about whether the Pope was right or wrong in this context: is there a kind of attempting to convert someone that you would not support (i.e. mormon double speak, conquistador conquest, etc)? do you think that you should attempt to steer every conversation you have towards an attempt to convert someone (i.e. thanksgiving dinner, the toast at your friend's wedding, etc)? is there ever a scenario in which you would sit down for an honest discussion with someone and sincerely say to them "I'm not trying to convert you, I just want to discuss these things in mutual respect"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 ... the Pope has clearly and definitively said many times that he supports evangelization and conversion. Aloysius, as you aware in recent times old words have been found with new meanings. Sure, Francis has used the term "evangelization" but what was meant by it? In the interview his personal view is that we are not out to convert one another, rather we ought to discuss, build bridges, and follow our own idea of goodness. This doesn't sound like a man who believes the Catholic Church is the Ark of Salvation and everyone needs to get aboard her to make it spiritually. Evangelization may simply mean doing charitable works, or more disturbingly, encouraging others to follow their own goodness. It's really hard to tell what is meant. It would be interesting if a new thread could be started particularly on this issue because it's really at the crux of the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Aloysius, as you aware in recent times old words have been found with new meanings. Sure, Francis has used the term "evangelization" but what was meant by it? In the interview his personal view is that we are not out to convert one another, rather we ought to discuss, build bridges, and follow our own idea of goodness. This doesn't sound like a man who believes the Catholic Church is the Ark of Salvation and everyone needs to get aboard her to make it spiritually. Evangelization may simply mean doing charitable works, or more disturbingly, encouraging others to follow their own goodness. It's really hard to tell what is meant. It would be interesting if a new thread could be started particularly on this issue because it's really at the crux of the matter. utter and complete nonsense. he defines evangelization as bringing people to Jesus Christ and to the Church many times, whether he affirms Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Sallus may be another question, unless proven otherwise it would seem he affirms the re-working of EENS in the Catechism which still calls for evangelizing and converting but allows for the possibility to hope that someone might make it to heaven by some other means as God has bound salvation to the sacraments and the Church but He himself is not bound by the limits of man... so I could understand a debate about that point, but it is by no means accurate to state that the Pope does not wish to work for the conversion of souls. the only things this Pope has spoken against is certain kinds of what he calls "proselytizing" by which people attempt to win converts for impure motives or through evil means, something which the CDF also warned against in 2007. the position of the Vatican regarding all of these matters remains what is stated in Dominus Iesus... I have not seen Pope Francis anywhere contradict that http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html your broad conclusions drawn from portions of this interview, which Fr. Lombardi has just recently cautioned should not be taken as a fully precise account of all of the Pope's words though he hasn't disputed anything in particular, are completely and utterly incongruous with what the Pope has said about conversion and evangelization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 It is pretty sad that every time Pope Francis talks people have to come out and write massive essays explaining what he actually meant and how it really is orthodox even if it does not look orthodox when taken at face value. Evidently Pope Francis has decided to create a whole new theological language that only he and a few other people understand. No one had to constantly explain the things that Pope Benedict said in this manner. I could understand Pope Benedict's message, but then his message was well formulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 obviously you're at liberty to ignore this if you wish, but I really am curious as to your answers to my questions in post 196: I think that people aren't quite getting what I'm trying to say about "intentions" and "trying", there's nothing wrong with intending or trying, but there can be problems with it in certain contexts... so I will ask, and for the sake of argument please detach these questions in your mind from any judgment about whether the Pope was right or wrong in this context: is there a kind of attempting to convert someone that you would not support (i.e. mormon double speak, conquistador conquest, etc)? do you think that you should attempt to steer every conversation you have towards an attempt to convert someone (i.e. thanksgiving dinner, the toast at your friend's wedding, etc)? is there ever a scenario in which you would sit down for an honest discussion with someone and sincerely say to them "I'm not trying to convert you, I just want to discuss these things in mutual respect"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) Al, I do not support evil means of any kind, for any reason, which is why I reject Mormon double speak and Pope Francis' double speak equally. That said, I do not see how a Christian can abandon the intention of bringing other men to Christ. After all, Christ commanded that we preach the Gospel and make disciples of all nations. A Christian who has no intention of trying to convert other men to Christ is not a good Christian. Edited October 2, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 . . . is there ever a scenario in which you would sit down for an honest discussion with someone and sincerely say to them "I'm not trying to convert you, I just want to discuss these things in mutual respect"? No. As I understand the Gospel received by Christ through the Holy Apostles, a Christian's whole life should be dedicated to bringing other men out of darkness and into the Light of God. I reject the idea that mutual respect and the act of trying to convert another person are mutually exclusive. In fact, to truly respect another human being a Christian should desire with all his heart that the person he is talking to comes to Christ, for true freedom only exists in Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 My Interview With Pope Francis by Fr. Dwight Longenecker I was sitting at my desk when my secretary knocked on the door. I could see she was excited and breathless. “I have the Pope on the phone for you!†“Your Holiness, this is unexpected!†“I would like you to have a dialogue with you. However, since you are in the United States I would like this interview to take place in your mind. This is a chance for you, as one of my priests, to ask me questions.†“Your Holiness, I am honored.†The interview began. The room I sat in was simply furnished. There was a chair, a desk and a religious picture on the wall. I had a glass of water. In my mind the Pope entered the room. He was dressed in white. Holiness, allow me first of all to thank you for the honor of conducting an interview with me. I am, after all, only a convert, and one of your humble priests. My first question to you is about the importance of the New Evangelization. How shall we convince a new generation of the love of Christ and convert them to the Catholic faith? Proselytism is solemn nonsense. It makes no sense. I recently had an interview with the Italian atheist Alfredo Sauce and I assured him that I did not want to convert him. I see. You will forgive me as I am a convert from the Protestant tradition, and when I was in Sunday School I learned the story of Jesus Christ calling his apostles to be fishers of men. I also recall the Lord’s words, “Go into all the world and make disciples, teaching them and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.†Holy Father, how shall we understand the command of the Lord to his apostles if proselytism is nonsense? But then, perhaps I have misunderstood your words and there is a deeper meaning? I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.†I see. So perhaps it is not so important to convert people to the Catholic faith? What then is our mission? Simply to make the world a better place? “Yes, that is the purpose of our mission: to identify the material and immaterial needs of the people and try to meet them as we can. Do you know what agape is?†Yes, I know. “It is love of others, as our Lord preached. It is not proselytizing, it is love. Love for one’s neighbor, that leavening that serves the common good.†Perhaps the translation from Italian was faulty, but am I to understand that as a Catholic priest then, you would advise me to simply love people and make the world a better place and not seek to convert anyone? The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood. All are brothers and all children of God. Abba, as he called the Father. I will show you the way, he said. Follow me and you will find the Father and you will all be his children and he will take delight in you. What a beautiful thought. I am sure something is being lost in translation, but it seems theologically imprecise to speak of “the Son of God becoming incarnate in the souls of men†How does one “become incarnate†in the soul? So the important thing is for people to have a feeling of brotherhood. I can see why non-believers are pleased with this message because it is something with which they can agree!Please forgive me Holy Father for being obtuse and simplistic, but I am reminded of the Lord’s conversation with Nicodemus in the third chapter of John’s gospel. The Lord said to Nicodemus that it was necessary for a person to be born again of water and the spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God. He went on to say that through his coming death on the cross–when he would be lifted up– all who believe in him would be saved. He then says in verse 18 that those who do not believe are already condemned. I have always understood that the default setting of all human beings is that they are condemned unless they believe in Christ, and the church therefore has the imperative from Christ himself to preach the gospel and call men and women to repentance and faith. Was this not the primary mission of Peter the Apostle, and is it not therefore your primary mission as his successor? But perhaps I have misunderstood. God is the light that illuminates the darkness, even if it does not dissolve it, and a spark of divine light is within each of us… our species will end but the light of God will not end and at that point it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone.†I believe Tielhard deChardin was a Jesuit also was he not? Holiness allow me to ask you a question concerning your earlier words, you said that Jesus said, “I will show you the way.†Perhaps it is lost in translation and I have misunderstood the Scriptures, or perhaps I am being too picky, but I believe Jesus said not that he would “show us the way†but that he IS the way. This would seem to be an existential claim which places him above all other teachers or mentors who merely claim to show the way. Have I misunderstood your teaching here? Agape, the love of each one of us for the other, from the closest to the furthest, is in fact the only way that Jesus has given us to find the way of salvation and of the Beatitudes. Those are beautiful sentiments, and as St Paul teaches “the greatest of these is loveâ€. However, I have always understood that Jesus Christ is “the Way, the Truth and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through him†This indicates something different than simply loving our neighbor as yourself or following the path of a wise religious teacher. There is first of all an existential encounter with the person of Jesus Christ. In your other interviews and homilies you have spoken of the importance of that primary encounter with the living Jesus Christ, so perhaps I have misunderstood what you are saying here. Surely you are not telling me as one of your priests that all I need to do is be kind and loving to others? “there is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation. Jesus is my teacher and my pastor,Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good.†The conscience is a valuable guide, but as Chief Pastor isn’t it your responsibility to help form the consciences of your flock with clear moral teaching? I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. I must continue to listen and learn from you Holiness. I understand that your recent conversation with an atheist should not be understood as definitive church teaching. It was no more than a personal conversation.I am grateful for your interviews with atheists, but I must admit to being confused by many of your answers. What I have gathered from this most recent interview is that all people will be saved in the end, and that it is good enough for everyone to simply follow their conscience and be loving to others. My final question is this – if you really are saying that following one’s conscience is good enough and one does not need to be converted, that belief in Jesus Christ is optional and that in the end all will be saved–then why should I continue be ing a Catholic priest? Indeed why should I continue to be a Catholic? Transcendence remains because that light, all in everything, transcends the universe and the species it inhabits at that stage. But back to the present. We have made a step forward in our dialogue. We have observed that in society and the world in which we live selfishness has increased more than love for others, and that men of good will must work, each with his own strengths and expertise, to ensure that love for others increases until it is equal and possibly exceeds love for oneself.†Thank you for meeting with me Holy Father. I want to continue to learn from you, but may I leave you with a simple question? As you continue to meet with atheists and unbelievers will you also take time to meet with those of your flock who find your personal views difficult to understand? Many of us are ordinary Christians who love Jesus Christ and believe the plain words of Scripture. When we read what you are saying some of it seems to contradict the words of Jesus himself. I hope you will take time to explain them for us and help us to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 No. As I understand the Gospel received by Christ through the Holy Apostles, a Christian's whole life should be dedicated to bringing other men out of darkness and into the Light of God. I reject the idea that mutual respect and the act of trying to convert another person are mutually exclusive. In fact, to truly respect another human being a Christian should desire with all his heart that the person he is talking to comes to Christ, for true freedom only exists in Him. Correction: the word "received" should be the word "given", i.e., the "Gospel given by Christ through the Holy Apostles . . ." Sorry for the error, but the edit function is very limited at Phatmass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 that's a pretty disgusting piece of satire, if you ask me. Fr. Longenecker should know better than to misrepresent the Pope that way. shame on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Francis has the world confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 No. As I understand the Gospel received by Christ through the Holy Apostles, a Christian's whole life should be dedicated to bringing other men out of darkness and into the Light of God. I reject the idea that mutual respect and the act of trying to convert another person are mutually exclusive. In fact, to truly respect another human being a Christian should desire with all his heart that the person he is talking to comes to Christ, for true freedom only exists in Him. well I think there is a way to share one's faith in Christ where one does not explicitly intend to draw all topics into conversion... I mean, for instance, would you eat thanksgiving dinner with a member of your family who was non-Christian and not constantly try to convince him to become a Christian, but rather hope that your love and example of living in faith might rub off on him? discuss sports or the weather with him some time in a way that your discussion was not an attempt to convert him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 My Interview With Pope Francis by Fr. Dwight Longenecker I was sitting at my desk when my secretary knocked on the door. I could see she was excited and breathless. “I have the Pope on the phone for you!†. . . I like the following quotation from a different post by Fr. Longenecker: "If a Christian enters dialogue and does not want to convert the other person then they are either being disingenuous or they really don’t believe it is necessary for the other person to convert. Both are wrong headed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 well I think there is a way to share one's faith in Christ where one does not explicitly intend to draw all topics into conversion... I mean, for instance, would you eat thanksgiving dinner with a member of your family who was non-Christian and not constantly try to convince him to become a Christian, but rather hope that your love and example of living in faith might rub off on him? discuss sports or the weather with him some time in a way that your discussion was not an attempt to convert him? See post 208. I agree with Fr. Longenecker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 meh... sure I want everyone to convert (so does Francis, he never said otherwise), but there are many instances in life in which I am not trying explicitly to convert someone... does that make me a bad Christian in your eyes? is there no room for sports, weather, friendship, and beer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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