Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 As a convert, and as someone who was overjoyed by the process of conversion experienced by my mother when she was gravely ill, I do not know what to think. Are my conversion and my mother's conversion "solemn nonsense"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Can you see how painful the Pope's words can be? Why would he make conversion, because that is what the interviewer asked about, seem so unimportant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Aloysius, I'm curious where has Francis endorsed evangelization but not proselytism? With the way words are used to have double meanings, I would be interested in looking further how "evangelization" is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 after the Pope joked with the interview that people told him that the interviewerer was just going to use the interview for the ulterior motive of converting him to atheism, the interviewerer responded by saying his friends joked it was the other way around... the pope's response was that he wanted to share love with him and to listen to him in that discussion... if you look at the context of the line he's drawn between proslyticism and evangelization, he believes that one who is secure in their faith in Jesus Christ need not go into conversations with ulterior motives or needs to prove themselves, but can listen and discuss sincerely and that their faith shines through wherever they bring it in that way. the exortation to follow one's conscious and do good and avoid evil is one step along that discussion... the Pope by no means told him he shouldn't convert, by no means. you're reading something that isn't there, and in one line of simple good humored rapport between two men assuring each other they would have a respectful discussion and dialogue, you've assumed Pope Francis has thrown out everything he's ever believed about his desire for all men to encounter Christ. apteka, I posted a link to an article about the Pope's homily where he makes the distinction clear, Era's extended quote is in the same theme but the terms are directly talked about in the homily I linked to the article about... also the 2007 CDF document I referenced makes the distinction that specifies that proselytization is currently used as a term to refer to attempts to convert someone through means or motives that don't conform to the Gospel.... ie it's an attempt to convert where the ends of conversion are considered to justify insincere or evil means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I read the interview, and so I know that Mr. Scalfari was jesting, but he turned his jest into a serious question, and Pope Francis answered it in a serious manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Is only "proselytism" solemn nonsense, or is conversion too, since that is the word the interviewer used. Should we stop calling people converts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 "proselytism" is an attempt to convert someone through insincere means or bad motives (as the CDF understands the term at least) which is why we can understand a conversation that goes: "are you just trying to convert me here?" "no, proselyticism is solemn nonsense... I'm having a sincere conversation with you and want to share this about love with you" it would also make sense in the context of some missionary somewhere feeding a hungry person, if the hungry person said "are you just trying to convert me by giving me this food?" and the missionary said "no, proselytism is solemn nonsense" they sat down for a sincere dialogue, and that's what they were going to have, no ulterior motives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 "proselytism" is an attempt to convert someone through insincere means or bad motives (as the CDF understands the term at least) The CDF does not determine the meaning of the Greek word "proselytism." It is a perfectly good word, and one found in the New Testament and the writings of the Fathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 apteka, I posted a link to an article about the Pope's homily where he makes the distinction clear, Era's extended quote is in the same theme but the terms are directly talked about in the homily I linked to the article about... also the 2007 CDF document I referenced makes the distinction that specifies that proselytization is currently used as a term to refer to attempts to convert someone through means or motives that don't conform to the Gospel.... ie it's an attempt to convert where the ends of conversion are considered to justify insincere or evil means. I found your posts (#95 and #97 if I remembered that right.) The difference between "evangelization" and "proselytism" is not well defined. If a Catholic studies the current scholarly literature on the textual integrity of the Quran to polemically attack Islamic doctrine on the Qu'ran's indefectibility, is that considered proselytism? Again, not sure. Furthermore, what exactly are we "evangelizing"? Interestingly enough it's never really made clear. In the Pope's interview, Francis said the Son of God became man to strengthen the feeling of brotherhood. If that's what the Church is evangelizing, but not proselytizing then we're not in better shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) which is why we can understand a conversation that goes: "are you just trying to convert me here?" "no, proselyticism is solemn nonsense... I'm having a sincere conversation with you and want to share this about love with you" it would also make sense in the context of some missionary somewhere feeding a hungry person, if the hungry person said "are you just trying to convert me by giving me this food?" and the missionary said "no, proselytism is solemn nonsense" they sat down for a sincere dialogue, and that's what they were going to have, no ulterior motives. Why when asked about conversion switch to the use of the word proselytism? Is the Pope trying to trick his interlocutor? Make him think that he is against "conversion" when in fact he is really for it, and only opposed to proselytism. Later the Pope says he has no intention of converting the man, but if he loves the man isn't conversion of heart the proper end to be sought? Pope Francis seems to make some really illogical distinctions here. Are we to ever have the intention to convert people? I desired the conversion of my mother, was that a bad thing? Pope Francis' responses raise more questions than they answer. Edited October 1, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 The CDF does not determine the meaning of the Greek word "proselytism." It is a perfectly good word, and one found in the New Testament and the writings of the Fathers. honestly that's perfectly fine, you can defend the greek word all you want, but you should understand that's how Pope Francis was using it, and that's how most theologians these days use the term... so when they use it, you should understand what they're saying. I don't know what word you would use for such a concept, but if you come up with one, imagine that they have said that word. Apteka, proslyticism is when one is not motivated by sharing the love of Christ... you could of course be well versed in Islam and evangelize that way, or you could be proselytizing, it depends upon whether your motives are in sharing your firm faith in Jesus Christ, and whether your means are good and moral. if you are studying the Koran and Hadiths sincerely to understand what they actually mean and use that to reach a Muslim (to show them how they're wrong, lead them from what parts might say something good towards the full truth, etc), that's fine, but if you're trying to insincerely twist them and find any little thing you can just because you want to convert a Muslim, that's dishonest and therefore wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 honestly that's perfectly fine, you can defend the greek word all you want, but you should understand that's how Pope Francis was using it, and that's how most theologians these days use the term... so when they use it, you should understand what they're saying. I don't know what word you would use for such a concept, but if you come up with one, imagine that they have said that word. So is the word proselytism bad, while conversion is good? Or are both bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 proslyticism as it is used in the current context by theologians, by Pope Francis, by Patriarch Bartholomew, by the CDF, etc, is bad, yes. conversion is good. the thing that's wrong with what is called "proslyticism" is that the good ends of conversion do not justify the means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Apteka, proslyticism is when one is not motivated by sharing the love of Christ... you could of course be well versed in Islam and evangelize that way, or you could be proselytizing, it depends upon whether your motives are in sharing your firm faith in Jesus Christ, and whether your means are good and moral. if you are studying the Koran and Hadiths sincerely to understand what they actually mean and use that to reach a Muslim (to show them how they're wrong, lead them from what parts might say something good towards the full truth, etc), that's fine, but if you're trying to insincerely twist them and find any little thing you can just because you want to convert a Muslim, that's dishonest and therefore wrong. My impression is attacking the Quran's integrity would actually be considered proselytism because it's polemetical. It seems evangelization is, if anything, presenting the Gospel (what that may be is another question.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) proslyticism as it is used in the current context by theologians, by Pope Francis, by Patriarch Bartholomew, by the CDF, etc, is bad, yes. conversion is good. the thing that's wrong with what is called "proslyticism" is that the ends do not justify the means. Why then in response to the interviewer's use of the word "convert / conversion" does Pope Francis switch to proselytism. It seems he is using the terms interchangeably. Why also does Francis say it is not his intention to convert the interviewer? Shouldn't it be our intention to make disciples of every single person, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit? Perhaps if the interviewer had used the word proselytism himself what you are saying would make sense, but I still think you are evading answering my question on this point. Pope Francis does not seem to be interested in converting people, but how can you evangelize people without the intention to convert them to Christ? Edited October 1, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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