Suffering.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Peace be with you all.

 

So i was just thinking after watching my 1st episode of bishop fulton sheens and it is part 1 on his series of suffering. 

If suffering is a consequence of original and actual sin for and against, then how did God suffer if it is a consequence of sin and he has never sinned? Did he enjoy the crucifixion or something? Like in my limited understanding i guess it's a mystery but is it that God suffered the sins against him not anything that he actually did, which is obvious but perhaps not for some. I know i should be over joyed that God instead suffered for our sins and didn't wipe us out, and i am thankful for salvation, but i am also very ashamed and sad at the thought that he may still suffer. Does God still suffer or was it Just that momment in time when he was crucified. I honestly don't wan't Jesus to suffer, it's tearing me at the seams, and not just the possibility that Jesus still suffers but also my own sufferings. Can we have a chat about suffering and other peoples understanding of suffering, the churches understanding, biblical understanding etc etc, just a good pow wow on suffering, i think it will be beneficial for anyone whom has not entered into this kind of talk or thought but also to polish those whom already have.. Your thought's anyone?

 

Onward christian souls.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Catherine Therese]

Hi T. 

Quite a few questions in there. I'll step out of character and attempt to be succinct:

1. How did God suffer if He never sinned, given that suffering is a consequence of sin?

    The whole point is that Christ took on the punishment for OUR sins. Because Christ is truly one of us, this meant that a representative of humanity was offered in sacrifice, but because Christ is also God, and therefore completely innocent, a spotless Victim, as we hear in the Eucharistic prayer, the sacrifice was perfect.

2. Did Christ enjoy the Crucifixion?

    Whilst joy and suffering can coexist, I don't really think that ENJOYMENT and suffering can coexist. By definition, suffering is not enjoyable. Therefore I can't see how anyone can claim that Christ enjoyed the Crucifixion. When people talk of experiencing joy through suffering, they speak of a WILLED joy, that is, an assent to the reality that God can do amazing things through the circumstances that cause us suffering, and that if we choose to take joy in God's marvellous works through these times, we are predisposed for Him to work some of those amazing things IN US.   

3. Does God still suffer?
   Firstly, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and the Divine nature of Christ are IMPASSIBLE, i.e. they do not suffer. This is a doctrine that was declared in the First Vatican Council. 

   This gets tricky - you have to recall that Jesus Christ, the second person of the Blessed Trinity, is ONE person with TWO natures. In His Divine Nature, as stated above, He does not suffer. In His HUMAN Nature, however, He is capable of the deepest extent of suffering possible to humanity. This is necessary, for Christ's sacrifice on the Cross to merit salvation for us. 

    Things gets even trickier when we take into account that God transcends time. His Incarnation means that His Human Nature had a chronological beginning within history, but has no end. His Divine Nature historically predated His Human Nature in history, because He took His Human Nature from the Blessed Virgin Mary, who had a beginning in time, even though she was planned out of eternity. Remember that these things are said from the point of view of our human apprehension of these realities. So within the construct of time, Christ's sacrifice on the Cross is located at a fixed point on a chronology, but when theologians speak of the "Eternal Now" they mean that God experiences everything in a single, ontological act that is eternal. So the concept of "still" in your question "Does God still suffer" is actually a bit irrelevant to God. The best way we can try to explain it, once again from the viewpoint of our human capacity to apprehend the reality, is that the Crucifixion occurred within the "Eternal Now" - there is a historical point in chronology, but this is part of God's single, eternal ontological act. 

 

Clear as mud?

It's definitely head-bending stuff.

 

I think having tried to put a framework around it all, we come back to the reality that all of this is a MYSTERY. We refer to it as a mystery all the time - Christ's Paschal Mystery. We can consider it (and it is good to consider it, because it engenders a deeper awe and wonder at God's incredible Majesty!) from every angle, trying to apply what we know from Church teaching... but we're only ever going to scratch the surface in this life. We'll never plumb the depths. 

 

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This is my understanding of things and I have tried to reflect Church teaching faithfully in my answers above. If I have spoken in error, which let's face it, has been known to happen ;), I defer to the teaching of the Church on all of the above. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

So this is what i'm thinking, Jesus is in his resurrected flesh now, the earthly vessel was only temporary,partial and a moment in time, although he still bears the wounds the wounds are different now and he is no longer suffering.

 

And thanks for your post catherine, very enlightening and with gods grace/love i'm sure, and a dash of faith and hope on your part. :) I will need to read it a few times again first to discuss what you have disclosed.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

wouldn't let me edit again so here is another post in succession.

 

 So Christ is still of two natures and that wasn't just on his earthly mission, and i know he resurrected in his human body but has that body transformed to be something different then human. I guess it wasn't just the flesh that is just the human side of his dual nature, so what exactly is the human nature of God.

[Catherine Therese]

So this is what i'm thinking, Jesus is in his resurrected flesh now, the earthly vessel was only temporary,partial and a moment in time, although he still bears the wounds the wounds are different now and he is no longer suffering.

 

Hmmm...  <thinking>...

 

... from what I understand Jesus' glorified Body is the same Body as the one He possessed during His life here on earth prior to His suffering and death. The difference is that it has been "glorified" and this state is how Christ's Body will be for all eternity. If you look at the Scriptural account of Jesus' encounter with Mary Magdalene on the morning of the Resurrection where He asked her not to cling to Him, it suggests that His Body had not yet been glorified at the point of Resurrection, that this happened between this encounter with MM and the time that He appeared to the Apostles and allowed Thomas to put his hands in His Wounds. 
 

So I don't think the Body in which Christ walked the earth was a temporary thing at all. It is the same Body, just in a glorified state now and forever. Yes, His Body had a beginning, but no, It has no end.  

 

I THINK what you're getting at is that you're interpreting what I described as "human nature" to be the same as "body". 

Actually, when I talk about Christ's Human Nature, I'm talking about the "composite" reality of both His Body and His Soul. I'm talking about the whole of His Humanity. So it really does get kind of complicated, doesn't it?

 

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the same disclaimer about deference to Church teaching as the one in my previous post in this thread applies :) 
 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

 

 

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the same disclaimer about deference to Church teaching as the one in my previous post in this thread applies :) 
 

 

I used to say a similar thing at the end of every serious post :) i still do now but only sometimes, perhaps i have gotten lazy and focusing only on those that already know i have said it multiple times, i must also consider new people that don't know me. And it is a humble thing to say that you may not be 100% correct or words to that effect if your not 100% sure of what you are saying.