Pope Assures Rabbi Church Will Not Proselytize

[Apotheoun]

Is it absolutely necessary that people come to Christ? Or is it optional?

Was this question for me? 

 

I believe that faith in Christ is absolutely necessary, and that it is the duty of all Christians (not just priests or monastics) to bring Christ to those in religious darkness. Christ is the sole savior of mankind.

[Apteka]

Was this question for me? 

 

I believe that faith in Christ is absolutely necessary, and that it is the duty of all Christians (not just priests or monastics) to bring Christ to those in religious darkness. Christ is the sole savior of mankind.

 

No, it's referring to Era's post (#18 in this thread.)

 

I'm still trying to figure out his position

[Apotheoun]

No, it's referring to Era's post (#18 in this thread.)

 

I'm still trying to figure out his position

Okay. I wasn't sure.

[Era Might]

Please define "religion"

 

Can this "religion of the Gospel" be identified in any community or Church today? Or is it something invisible?

 

 

Is it absolutely necessary that people come to Christ? Or is it optional?

 

No, the Gospel is not invisible. It lives on every day in the lives of Christ's disciples throughout the world.

 

As far as people coming to Christ, I'm not sure what that means. Christ comes to us when we are week, and strengthens us to carry him to those who are still weak. That goes on in many ways, sometimes through religious forms (rituals, structures, etc.), sometimes through relationships, sometimes through encounter, sometimes through discussion, sometimes through art, etc.

 

I think what you are asking me is whether I believe in the old social model of church and state, where the church is the spiritual guardian of the empire, and the state is the temporal guardian. No, of course I don't believe in that kind of thing.

[Era Might]

In my life time I have spoken of Christ (or preached Christ if you will) to lots of Jews. I have also had religious conversations with Muslims, probably more of them than Jews. I was active in both the Jewish Studies Department and the Islamic Studies Department at SF State University, and have a minor in Jewish Studies, so I have talked about Christ with lots of Jews, and even got a nice Jewish young man and his girlfriend to come to Church with me (more than once).

 

I assure you that every day when the Pope preaches his homily, he reaches more Jews and Muslims in a single sermon than you will in your entire life.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Era Might

[Apotheoun]

I assure you that every day when the Pope preaches his homily, he reaches more Jews and Muslims in a single sermon than you will in your entire life.

And no doubt confirms them in their false beliefs.

[Apteka]

No, the Gospel is not invisible. It lives on every day in the lives of Christ's disciples throughout the world.

 

 

Right, it's not invisible in the sense that those who live out the Gospel have actions that can be perceived. But you spoke of "religion" and I'm trying to understand what you meant by that word. You don't seem to believe that there is a true religion, and you seem to suggest "religions" are a bad thing. So if you could clarify it would be appreciated.

 

As far as people coming to Christ, I'm not sure what that means. Christ comes to us when we are week, and strengthens us to carry him to those who are still weak. That goes on in many ways, sometimes through religious forms (rituals, structures, etc.), sometimes through relationships, sometimes through encounter, sometimes through discussion, sometimes through art, etc.

 

So Christ may come upon a faithful person who experiences God through the mysteries/sacraments, or he may come upon a person outside of those sacraments, or perhaps even outside of Christianity entirely? It seems like religion, and Catholicism in particular, plays no part here. Also seems like you endorse the Anonymous Christian hypothesis to some degree.

 

I think what you are asking me is whether I believe in the old social model of church and state, where the church is the spiritual guardian of the empire, and the state is the temporal guardian. No, of course I don't believe in that kind of thing.

 

 

Do you consider yourself a Roman Catholic?

[Nihil Obstat]

Goodness, I hope we do not deal with this kind of thing several times a week all the way through Pope Francis' pontificate. :wacko: I do not think my poor fragile traddy heart can take it.

[Era Might]

And no doubt confirms them in their false beliefs.

 

Undoubtedly. It's a pity you aren't Pope to show us what real Christianity is.

 

1. “Woe to the complacent in Zion, to those who feel secure … lying upon beds of ivory!” (Am 6:1,4). They eat, they drink, they sing, they play and they care nothing about other people’s troubles.

These are harsh words which the prophet Amos speaks, yet they warn us about a danger that all of us face. What is it that this messenger of God denounces; what does he want his contemporaries, and ourselves today, to realize? The danger of complacency, comfort, worldliness in our lifestyles and in our hearts, of making our well-being the most important thing in our lives. This was the case of the rich man in the Gospel, who dressed in fine garments and daily indulged in sumptuous banquets; this was what was important for him. And the poor man at his doorstep who had nothing to relieve his hunger? That was none of his business, it didn’t concern him. Whenever material things, money, worldliness, become the centre of our lives, they take hold of us, they possess us; we lose our very identity as human beings. Think of it: the rich man in the Gospel has no name, he is simply “a rich man”. Material things, his possessions, are his face; he has nothing else.

Let’s try to think: How does something like this happen? How do some people, perhaps ourselves included, end up becoming self-absorbed and finding security in material things which ultimately rob us of our face, our human face? This is what happens when we become complacent, when we no longer remember God. “Woe to the complacent in Zion”, says the prophet. If we don’t think about God, everything ends up flat, everything ends up being about “me” and my own comfort. Life, the world, other people, all of these become unreal, they no longer matter, everything boils down to one thing: having. When we no longer remember God, we too become unreal, we too become empty; like the rich man in the Gospel, we no longer have a face! Those who run after nothing become nothing – as another great prophet Jeremiah, observed (cf. Jer 2:5). We are made in God’s image and likeness, not the image and likeness of material objects, of idols!

2. So, as I look out at you, I think: Who are catechists? They are people who keep the memory of God alive; they keep it alive in themselves and they are able to revive it in others. This is something beautiful: to remember God, like the Virgin Mary, who sees God’s wondrous works in her life but doesn’t think about honour, prestige or wealth; she doesn’t become self-absorbed. Instead, after receiving the message of the angel and conceiving the Son of God, what does she do? She sets out, she goes to assist her elderly kinswoman Elizabeth, who was also pregnant. And the first thing she does upon meeting Elizabeth is to recall God’s work, God’s fidelity, in her own life, in the history of her people, in our history: “My soul magnifies the Lord … For he has looked on the lowliness of his servant … His mercy is from generation to generation” (Lk 1:46, 48, 50). Mary remembers God.

This canticle of Mary also contains the remembrance of her personal history, God’s history with her, her own experience of faith. And this is true too for each one of us and for every Christian: faith contains our own memory of God’s history with us, the memory of our encountering God who always takes the first step, who creates, saves and transforms us. Faith is remembrance of his word which warms our heart, and of his saving work which gives life, purifies us, cares for and nourishes us. A catechist is a Christian who puts this remembrance at the service of proclamation, not to seem important, not to talk about himself or herself, but to talk about God, about his love and his fidelity. To talk about and to pass down all that God has revealed, his teaching in its totality, neither trimming it down nor adding on to it.

Saint Paul recommends one thing in particular to his disciple and co-worker Timothy: Remember, remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, whom I proclaim and for whom I suffer (cf. 2 Tim 2:8-9). The Apostle can say this because he too remembered Christ, who called him when he was persecuting Christians, who touched him and transformed him by his grace.

The catechist, then, is a Christian who is mindful of God, who is guided by the memory of God in his or her entire life and who is able to awaken that memory in the hearts of others. This is not easy! It engages our entire existence! What is the Catechism itself, if not the memory of God, the memory of his works in history and his drawing near to us in Christ present in his word, in the sacraments, in his Church, in his love? Dear catechists, I ask you: Are we in fact the memory of God? Are we really like sentinels who awaken in others the memory of God which warms the heart?

3. “Woe to the complacent in Zion!”, says the prophet. What must we do in order not to be “complacent” – people who find their security in themselves and in material things – but men and woman of the memory of God? In the second reading, Saint Paul, once more writing to Timothy, gives some indications which can also be guideposts for us in our work as catechists: pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, gentleness (cf. 1 Tim 6:11).

Catechists are men and women of the memory of God if they have a constant, living relationship with him and with their neighbour; if they are men and women of faith who truly trust in God and put their security in him; if they are men and women of charity, love, who see others as brothers and sisters; if they are men and women of “hypomoné”, endurance and perseverance, able to face difficulties, trials and failures with serenity and hope in the Lord; if they are gentle, capable of understanding and mercy.

Let us ask the Lord that we may all be men and women who keep the memory of God alive in ourselves, and are able to awaken it in the hearts of others. Amen.

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/homilies/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130929_giornata-catechisti_en.html

[John Ryan]

I believe that words bear meaning. They are not empty, which is why I am not a nominalist.

 

Even from a rationalist perspective, it is not that the words bear solid meanings in-themselves. It is rather that there are notions that are universal upon which the human words we use connect us to. I can use a multitude of words from tree, дерево, 木 — all with different connotations — to describe the same rational notion. It is the notion that has the fixed meaning, not the words qua words.

Edited September 30, 2013 by John Ryan

[Basilisa Marie]

If there were no difference between "prosthelytization" and "evangelization" it'd be called the New Prosthelytization instead of the New Evangelization. 

 

How we preach the Gospel to the Jewish people must reflect the fact that God made a covenant with them, and that God is always faithful to his covenants. 

 

From the NO:

 

 

 

Let us pray also for the Jewish people, to whom the Lord our God spoke first, that he may grant them to advance in love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. (Prayer in silence. Then the Priest says:) Almighty ever-living God, who bestowed your promises on Abraham and his descendants, hear graciously the prayers of your Church, that the people you first made your own may attain the fullness of redemption. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[Apteka]

If there were no difference between "prosthelytization" and "evangelization" it'd be called the New Prosthelytization instead of the New Evangelization. 

 

How we preach the Gospel to the Jewish people must reflect the fact that God made a covenant with them, and that God is always faithful to his covenants. 

 

From the NO:

 

 

I wasn't aware that the Roman Church preached anymore, it seems to have adopted a policy of dialogue and ecumenism which is not interested in the conversion of non-Catholics.

 

And I see that the N.O. prayer you quote doesn't explicitly pray for a conversion to Christ, as did the older '62 revision of the Good Friday prayer for Jewish enlightenment. What exactly does the N.O. prayer hope to achieve? Jews that are more orthodox?

 

I need a lexicon to interpret the Vaticanese contained in these prayers and encyclicals!

[Era Might]

Right, it's not invisible in the sense that those who live out the Gospel have actions that can be perceived. But you spoke of "religion" and I'm trying to understand what you meant by that word. You don't seem to believe that there is a true religion, and you seem to suggest "religions" are a bad thing. So if you could clarify it would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

So Christ may come upon a faithful person who experiences God through the mysteries/sacraments, or he may come upon a person outside of those sacraments, or perhaps even outside of Christianity entirely? It seems like religion, and Catholicism in particular, plays no part here. Also seems like you endorse the Anonymous Christian hypothesis to some degree.

 

 

Do you consider yourself a Roman Catholic?

 

Religion (a word which predates Christianity) is simply the way of interacting with God (or with the gods, in its original context). As St. James says, Christianity is always a matter of the heart. True religion is not characterized by how many rituals you conduct, but whether you take care of orphans and widows. Christ desires mercy, not sacrifice. Ritual is something natural, something all humans create in many different contexts. Ritual is not necessarily a bad thing, but the message of the Gospel is about revealing the weightier matters of the law. The Gospel is not simply Judaism with Latin and incense. It is an entirely new revelation of Christ, of love, of sacrifice, of community, of suffering. As the Lord says, "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

 

I don't know what an Anonymous Christian is.

[Apotheoun]

From the NO:

You do know that the prayer from the Novus Ordo is a watered down version of the prayer for the Jews in the so-called Vetus Ordo.

[Basilisa Marie]

You do know that the prayer from the Novus Ordo is a watered down version of the prayer for the Jews in the so-called Vetus Ordo.

 

And you do know that the Novus Ordo is the ordinary form of liturgy for the Church, so it's a good place to do some lex orandi lex credendi analysis? 

 

The prayer references their covenant with God, and however we preach the gospel to them (or whatever words we use for it) has to be careful to reflect that reality. That's probably what Francis was doing when he said that the Church will not proselytize them. 

Edited September 30, 2013 by Basilisa Marie