I Am Concerned For My Sister

[AugustineA]

and I don't know what to do. We were raised in a prosperity gospel household, and that resonated with her. She says that she sometimes only kept her faith because she knew God would get her somewhere better. I think those were her words, but I'm not completely sure. Anyways, she's beginning to question the prosperity gospel. 

 

Tonight she asked me what about all the wonderful promises of riches and joy in the Bible. I pointed out it's a spiritual kingdom, an eternal kingdom, and pointed her to St.Paul's epistles on suffering and endurance. Then she said she couldn't bear a life that was all suffering, and I pointed out the Christian life is also full of joy. She got frustrated, said it's one or the other, she couldn't bear a bad life, and left.

 

The past few weeks she's been saying things such as, we have alot of bills but I'm not letting it shake my faith too much.

 

I'm obviously failing to communicate the gospel, and it really worries me that maybe she's not quite getting it.. But I don't want to be presumptuous. 

[John Ryan]

“A faith that can only exist in the light of victory and certainty is one which really affirms the self while pretending to affirm Christ, for it only follows Jesus in the belief that Jesus has conquered death. Yet a faith that can look at the horror of the cross and still say ‘yes’ is one that says ‘no’ to the self in saying ‘yes’ to Christ.”  â€” Peter Rollins

[Luigi]

The prosperity Gospel is based primarily on the Old Testament (which means that it's not really "the Gospel," doesn't it?). It also selectively emphasizes certain books/portions of the Bible rather than reading it comprehensively & cohesively. Catholicism respects the Old Testament, but looks primarily to the New Testament (which fulfills the Old Testament) and has developed a theology based on a more comprehensive & cohesive reading of the whole Bible. 

 

Christianity ought to be about imitating Christ, and if one reads the Gospels & the rest of the New Testament, Jesus almost never mentions prosperity - does he EVER? Nor do Paul, John, or any of the other writers. In fact, poverty is mentioned pretty regularly. So you'd think that a clear-eyed reading of the Gospels would lead one to the fairly easy conclusion that the Gospel doesn't promise prosperity. I'm not blaming your sister, though - I'm sure she's getting most of her understanding from the pastors of her church. 

 

But it's going to be hard for your sister to let go of the religion with which she was raised. It sounds like she's got a lot of hopes pinned on Jesus The Divine Dispensary (you put enough prayers into the slot, you get what you pray for, material or otherwise) rather than on Jesus the Son of God, or the Savior, or the Suffering Servant, or the Good Shepherd (you put enough prayers into the slot and you become more like Jesus).  

[AnneLine]

For my 2 cents here, I'd just pray for her.   And be open to talking about things when and as she asks questions.

 

That prosperity gospel concept is one that doesn't hold up too well in the long run... but trusting in God's providence does.  So... we'll pray for her, and hopefully, when the time is right, her ability to listen will be enhanced by the Spirit.....

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

May the peace of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus be with you.

Perhaps these verses from holy scripture will help you.  :) Jesus said " It is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle." But then a few verses later when explaining this to his apostles he says " but anything is possible to God." And then we have saint paul saying " I can light myself on fire and give to the poor, but without love what is it for."

 

I think riches are ok but without God there pretty useless, in that God must be primary in our lives and if he chooses to bless you with riches, which he doesn't bless all with, then you need to use that money wisely and to build the kingdom of God and not hang on to it all. Here is another verse on riches from the book of Tobit when he was giving his last words to his son when he was dying, Tobit " the more you have the more you have to give, the less you have the less you can give but don't be ashamed of the little you can give."

 

Hopefully something in all that helps, sorry i don't have exact verses and my wording is probably incorrect i don't remember most verses word for word.

 

God bless you.

Onward christian souls.

Jesus is Lord.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[John Ryan]

The Prosperity Gospel is based upon the ideology of Job's friends. While Job pours his heart out and proclaims his innocence, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar insist that he must have sinned, because God is the upholder of karmic justice. I have experienced this reaction from Word of Faith Christians. They insist that my poor condition of health is merely because I do not have enough faith in God, and therefore must have sinned somehow to deserve this infirmity. The book as a whole positions itself as an unequivocal condemnation of an ideology based upon karmic justice.

[AugustineA]

The prosperity Gospel is based primarily on the Old Testament (which means that it's not really "the Gospel," doesn't it?). It also selectively emphasizes certain books/portions of the Bible rather than reading it comprehensively & cohesively. Catholicism respects the Old Testament, but looks primarily to the New Testament (which fulfills the Old Testament) and has developed a theology based on a more comprehensive & cohesive reading of the whole Bible. 

 

Christianity ought to be about imitating Christ, and if one reads the Gospels & the rest of the New Testament, Jesus almost never mentions prosperity - does he EVER? Nor do Paul, John, or any of the other writers. In fact, poverty is mentioned pretty regularly. So you'd think that a clear-eyed reading of the Gospels would lead one to the fairly easy conclusion that the Gospel doesn't promise prosperity. I'm not blaming your sister, though - I'm sure she's getting most of her understanding from the pastors of her church. 

 

But it's going to be hard for your sister to let go of the religion with which she was raised. It sounds like she's got a lot of hopes pinned on Jesus The Divine Dispensary (you put enough prayers into the slot, you get what you pray for, material or otherwise) rather than on Jesus the Son of God, or the Savior, or the Suffering Servant, or the Good Shepherd (you put enough prayers into the slot and you become more like Jesus).  

 

I know these things, but when I explain them to her she literally freaks out. Or at least she did yesterday. We haven't talked about it since, but that is almost word for word what I pointed out to her. I understand it's going to be tough for her. Thanks

 

“A faith that can only exist in the light of victory and certainty is one which really affirms the self while pretending to affirm Christ, for it only follows Jesus in the belief that Jesus has conquered death. Yet a faith that can look at the horror of the cross and still say ‘yes’ is one that says ‘no’ to the self in saying ‘yes’ to Christ.”  â€” Peter Rollins

 

Interesting quote. I agree with this, but I don't know how to help her.

 

For my 2 cents here, I'd just pray for her.   And be open to talking about things when and as she asks questions.

 

That prosperity gospel concept is one that doesn't hold up too well in the long run... but trusting in God's providence does.  So... we'll pray for her, and hopefully, when the time is right, her ability to listen will be enhanced by the Spirit.....

 

Yes I'm definitely going to pray for  her. Good advice as always.

 

May the peace of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus be with you.

Perhaps these verses from holy scripture will help you.  :) Jesus said " It is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle." But then a few verses later when explaining this to his apostles he says " but anything is possible to God." And then we have saint paul saying " I can light myself on fire and give to the poor, but without love what is it for."

 

I think riches are ok but without God there pretty useless, in that God must be primary in our lives and if he chooses to bless you with riches, which he doesn't bless all with, then you need to use that money wisely and to build the kingdom of God and not hang on to it all. Here is another verse on riches from the book of Tobit when he was giving his last words to his son when he was dying, Tobit " the more you have the more you have to give, the less you have the less you can give but don't be ashamed of the little you can give."

 

Hopefully something in all that helps, sorry i don't have exact verses and my wording is probably incorrect i don't remember most verses word for word.

 

God bless you.

Onward christian souls.

Jesus is Lord.

 

Well, what you say is truth, but I'm not sure how I can use it to show my sister the hopelessness of the prosperity Gospel. Nevertheless, thanks for responding. :)

 

The Prosperity Gospel is based upon the ideology of Job's friends. While Job pours his heart out and proclaims his innocence, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar insist that he must have sinned, because God is the upholder of karmic justice. I have experienced this reaction from Word of Faith Christians. They insist that my poor condition of health is merely because I do not have enough faith in God, and therefore must have sinned somehow to deserve this infirmity. The book as a whole positions itself as an unequivocal condemnation of an ideology based upon karmic justice.

 

Never thought of it like that, but they are fairly linked aren't they.. Good insight.

[John Ryan]

Never thought of it like that, but they are fairly linked aren't they.. Good insight.

 

I heard it from Miroslav Volf.

[AccountDeleted]

and I don't know what to do. We were raised in a prosperity gospel household, and that resonated with her. She says that she sometimes only kept her faith because she knew God would get her somewhere better. I think those were her words, but I'm not completely sure. Anyways, she's beginning to question the prosperity gospel. 

 

Tonight she asked me what about all the wonderful promises of riches and joy in the Bible. I pointed out it's a spiritual kingdom, an eternal kingdom, and pointed her to St.Paul's epistles on suffering and endurance. Then she said she couldn't bear a life that was all suffering, and I pointed out the Christian life is also full of joy. She got frustrated, said it's one or the other, she couldn't bear a bad life, and left.

 

The past few weeks she's been saying things such as, we have alot of bills but I'm not letting it shake my faith too much.

 

I'm obviously failing to communicate the gospel, and it really worries me that maybe she's not quite getting it.. But I don't want to be presumptuous. 

 

 

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't understand here. If she says that 'she sometimes only kept her faith because she knew God would get her somewhere better' then I say, leave her alone. God will get her somewhere better. It might not be in the way she imagines right now, but at least she will keep her faith until things do get better for her- and life being what it is, there is a pretty good chance that even though things get bad, they do also get better - ups and downs are part of life.

 

I'm not so sure why she has to have her beliefs challenged right now if she is feeling so stressed and upset. I'd just pray for her and say comforting things about God, not challenging things. Sure suffering is part of life but when a person is in pain, what they need more than anything is love and support, not gospel lessons.

 

Sorry if I sound harsh, but when I'm going through something bad the last thing I want is someone preaching at me, especially if I am getting through it by trusting in God, which is what it sounds like she is trying to do. Her theology may be off, but on the other hand, she is trying to trust in God.

 

Or am I misunderstanding what is happening here?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Also AugestineA, your sister must give with what she has now or God will not trust her with more. If you don't give enough when your poor you probably won't give enough when your rich. Perhaps that is why God doesn't let her become rich. Although you also can't give to much because that would be a sin also because you are not leaving enough for your needs and denying Gods providence.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[AugustineA]

Hm, well I certainly wasn't preaching at her. She came into t he room where I was sitting and asked specific questions about the prosperity doctrine. If anything, I felt like I said far too little. I'd like to encourage her that the Christian life is great and full of love and joy, but she doesn't seem to accept that its an internal joy, and a spiritual kingdom. I dunno, I prayed for her last night. Will do so again tonight. Yeah it's possible Tab.

[AccountDeleted]

Hm, well I certainly wasn't preaching at her. She came into t he room where I was sitting and asked specific questions about the prosperity doctrine. If anything, I felt like I said far too little. I'd like to encourage her that the Christian life is great and full of love and joy, but she doesn't seem to accept that its an internal joy, and a spiritual kingdom. I dunno, I prayed for her last night. Will do so again tonight. Yeah it's possible Tab.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as criticizing you. I was more trying to get into where her head is at. Your statement about her needing the prosperity gospel to keep her faith sort of made me wonder if perhaps she didn't just need someone to listen to her and tell her that things will get better eventually. Obviously you were with her, so only you know what she was really asking. I guess I would just tread warily when confronting someone else's belief if those beliefs are helping them to have faith in God during a difficult time - not heresy of course, but more focusing on God's love than on our earthly suffering. I also think that when we discuss redemptive suffering with others, we have to be sensitive as to whether they are in a place to be able to hear us or not.

 

Only you know this particular situation though, so as long as you are there for your sister, that is wonderful.

[blazeingstar]

Scott Hahn has some pretty good defenses against the prosperity gospel.

 

I think quoting all the things where Jesus condemns the rich would be bad, because this is going to ruffle feathers.

 

I also think challenging right away "no you are wrong it's about spiritual food" will also set your sister off.

 

I think the focus should be on the small blessings and how God always cares for those He calls.  Like speaking to the apostles and telling them to go on missions without many supplies.  God gives us what we need to sustain ourselves in this world and then turns it to abundant measure in the next.

[Gabriela]

I don't know if this will help, but it's what I always think of when I hear about the prosperity gospel: Christ without the cross. And the reverse, of course: the cross without Christ. It sounds like you're afraid she's going to swing from the former into the latter without ever understanding that, though the two together seem paradoxical, they're the reality of life and salvation.

 

I am quite loathe to suffer myself. I'm a big fat crybaby when I'm uncomfortable or challenged. Every Monday, when I show up at Mass, there's a big cross right behind the altar—with no Jesus on it. The two pieces are separable in that parish, and they move our Lord around from cross to cross depending on where they're praying at the time. On Mondays, He's always in the little chapel. The first time I saw that cross without Him, I was suffering a lot, so when I looked up to the cross and saw it without our Lord, I burst out crying. There was my cross—and no Savior on it.

 

Now, of course, I know that they just move Him around, and so when I see the cross without Him, I just go get Him and bring Him back! ;-)

 

All that being said, I can relate to your sister's fear of suffering. I think a lot of Americans fear nothing more than financial ruin. Or even just not having enough to feel comfortable. So my suggestion is: Get her a crucifix. If she's coming from some Protestant background, she's probably used to seeing just a cross, or just images of the risen Lord, or Jesus the Teacher, or the Shepherd. Get her a crucifix and put the two together for her. It'll be subtle, but on an unconscious level, it just might have an effect.

 

Obviously, if she's always been rather affluent, you should get her a really nice crucifix! ;-)

Edited October 13, 2013 by curiousing

[Basilisa Marie]

How deep is she into prosperity gospel?  Does she expect God to give her a nice job with a fancy salary, a sweet car, a hot guy to marry? Or does she trust that God will help her through the tough times if she stays faithful, and that it may not be what she imagines but things will get better?   From what you've said here, I wonder if it's more like the latter.  

 

If it is the latter, then it's really not all that bad, and it'd probably be helpful to encourage her to stay faithful, affirm that yes, God does help people, and challenge her a little bit to remember that God will sometimes give us tough times to learn to depend more on Him, something like that.  She may get less upset if you affirm some of the good things that she believes while you challenge the other ones.  

If she's expecting God to just drop a sack of money from heaven to take care of her bills without any effort on her part, that'd be different.  But I'm not getting that impression from your posts. 

Edited October 23, 2013 by Basilisa Marie