Agent Richard Dawkins, Job Well Done

[Aloysius]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_isl_num_of_mus-religion-islam-number-of-muslim

The bolded section is incorrect. But you're right. He did provide a rebuttal. I'm interested in a more detailed explanation, which I'm sure is available. 

add up all the arab countries, there are more Muslims in the Arab world... though I suppose technically you'll need to exclude Iran and such, but not having done the math myself I still think it's more, and for the purposes of my statement I was kind of using a broad definition of "the Arab world" that would include not only any country that's a member of the Arab league but also any other place in the Middle East for which my statements about the hegemony of the west would apply... the Arab/Persian world, shall we say.

[Aloysius]

There is an icky attitude shared by some Muslims about modern science mostly being a product of the "West", which comes with it a sort of bitterness towards achievements that build upon the discoveries of Islamic Golden Age. I do not know if we can determine whether this mentality is a cause or result of the problem (or both). So, yes, I guess it'd be intellectually lazy to throw the Nobel prize figures up and make a conclusion solely based on that.

Enter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AAl-Ghazali#Criticism

Here is what i'm referring to specifically. Tyson blames a statement made by Ghazali for the lack of scientific achievement in the Muslim world after the 12th century. The Muslim responses I've seen argue that Tyson misunderstood the quote. 

 

well an historical question about 12th century onward is its own question, the Dawkins statement is still idiotic even if you went all out to blame Islam for some historical stagnation of science there.  if the Arab world had become the dominant hegemonic force in the world instead of the West, they would likely dominate their equivalent of Nobel prizes, and I imagine their scientific tradition would've developed and discovered many things if it was the central political force in the world.

 

and of course there are some Muslims who have an icky attitude towards science, as there are Christians in the Bible belt who have an icky attitude as well.  of course that wouldn't be much of a problem for Dawkin's position, but it puts things in perspective for us... there are plenty of Muslims who are totally into science and there is no data to suggest that Islam is in any way keeping modern Muslim people in general from getting Nobel Prizes, and plenty of evidence to suggest that people who have the means to go to Trinity College are entirely advantaged.

 

maybe you could say there are no Salafis with nobel prizes in science, you could also say there are no Geocentrist Traditionalist Catholics or Biblical Literalist Creationists with nobel prizes in science, woopidity doo Captain Obvious!  there are plenty of paths either religious or cultural that a person can go down which will result in them not having a life dedicated to science and getting a nobel peace prize... but Islam in general is not one of those things.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

add up all the arab countries, there are more Muslims in the Arab world... though I suppose technically you'll need to exclude Iran and such, but not having done the math myself I still think it's more, and for the purposes of my statement I was kind of using a broad definition of "the Arab world" that would include not only any country that's a member of the Arab league but also any other place in the Middle East for which my statements about the hegemony of the west would apply... the Arab/Persian world, shall we say.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the estimates I've read claim fewer than 20% of Muslims live in the "Arab" world. 

[EmilyAnn]

If I'm not mistaken, the estimates I've read claim fewer than 20% of Muslims live in the "Arab" world. 

 

I've read statistics that indicate that about 20% of Muslims are Arab. North Africa, South-East Asia and places like Pakistan and Bangladesh seem to be forgotten. The Arab Muslim is just the stereotype - much like the stereotype of the American Fundamentalist when people think of Christianity. 

[Aloysius]

ah you are correct, I'm not sure if you counted Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan... but in general you're right.  even so the statement about Western dominance still applies to Bangladesh, and of course to Africa (which I think I wasn't really thinking about when I said that)... so how about the Arab/Persian/African world lol...either way it's a minor point, but you're right to correct my overly simplistic statement nonetheless.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

well an historical question about 12th century onward is its own question, the Dawkins statement is still idiotic even if you went all out to blame Islam for some historical stagnation of science there.  if the Arab world had become the dominant hegemonic force in the world instead of the West, they would likely dominate their equivalent of Nobel prizes, and I imagine their scientific tradition would've developed and discovered many things if it was the central political force in the world.

 

That's a good point, but we can't forget that not all of the key achievements from the Golden Age of Islam were actually by Muslims. Israel with a population of 7.9 million claims 4 nobel science laureates (twice the amount of all Muslims). The Muslim population in the United States, France, and the United Kingdom alone is higher than this number. The population of Israelis is much lower than the global population of Muslims. We're not even taking into account all Jews, only Israelis. I understand that i'm not proving anything by throwing these numbers out, but its painfully obvious that there's some sort of problem (whether or not its relevant to religion is another thing). 
 

 

 

maybe you could say there are no Salafis with nobel prizes in science, you could also say there are no Geocentrist Traditionalist Catholics or Biblical Literalist Creationists with nobel prizes in science, woopidity doo Captain Obvious!  there are plenty of paths either religious or cultural that a person can go down which will result in them not having a life dedicated to science and getting a nobel peace prize... but Islam in general is not one of those things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Nobel_Laureates

The problem exists for all Muslims, not just Salafis. There are only two Muslims named in the science portion of the article above. Now, we could argue that the problem exists among Salafis specifically because of their religious beliefs. I agree with you that it's hard to generalize the beliefs of all Muslims. 

Edited September 25, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Aloysius]

well it's not really a 'problem' among Salafis, unless you hold that the only thing significant one can do with one's life is to be a great scientist.  you might as well suggest that it's a problem among automobile mechanics, actors, baseball players, or desert hermits that none of them got nobel science prizes... they have devoted their lives to something entirely different than science.

 

Israel factors into the Western economic hegemony, it's basically the British colony of Palestine handed over to the Jewish diaspora community.  don't take that as a statement of judgment against them and open up any can of worms about whether Israel should've been created, btw, it's just a basic economic reality.

 

I guess my point is that the problem is the economic and political disparity.  How many Africans in Africa, for instance, are nobel science laureates?  I imagine not many... and anyone who does get to a high enough level in science from such a place will immediately find a way to get themselves to a Western University where research funding is available... but even that is difficult for people who are highly intelligent and devoted, acceptance at top level universities is difficult even for a smart student in America or Europe, and that difficulty is multiplied for smart students in countries where Islam is dominant.

[Aloysius]

I guess the main point is that there are many intelligent Muslim scientists... I know a few students in Egypt who are Muslim and are studying science or engineering at university, many of who have their greatest ambition to go to MIT.  as I understand the grading system here, their grades probably could've put them in the running if they were American students, but there are many more hurdles they will have to get over before they could make it to MIT and end up as researchers with a great deal of grant money available to achieve something unique and great in the scientific world worthy of a Nobel prize.

 

the Muslims I know here who don't go far into any academic fields I would say do so because their chances of getting careers by that route are slim, none of them seem to have any idea that they don't want to do science because of some Islamic reason, more they don't want to do science because there's not much of a chance for them to succeed or get a job.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

well it's not really a 'problem' among Salafis, unless you hold that the only thing significant one can do with one's life is to be a great scientist.  you might as well suggest that it's a problem among automobile mechanics, actors, baseball players, or desert hermits that none of them got nobel science prizes... they have devoted their lives to something entirely different than science.

 

Israel factors into the Western economic hegemony, it's basically the British colony of Palestine handed over to the Jewish diaspora community.  don't take that as a statement of judgment against them and open up any can of worms about whether Israel should've been created, btw, it's just a basic economic reality.

 

I guess my point is that the problem is the economic and political disparity.  How many Africans in Africa, for instance, are nobel science laureates?  I imagine not many... and anyone who does get to a high enough level in science from such a place will immediately find a way to get themselves to a Western University where research funding is available... but even that is difficult for people who are highly intelligent and devoted, acceptance at top level universities is difficult even for a smart student in America or Europe, and that difficulty is multiplied for smart students in countries where Islam is dominant.

If I'm not mistaken, there are no black nobel prize winners in science related fields. Excellent point (the best counter-argument I've read so far). I think it's very possible that the problem is related to economic and political disparity. 

Culture could play into it as well. From what I've observed (and I think you'll find this to be the case in Egypt too), college students are pressured to  become either engineers, doctors, lawyers, or businessmen. Choosing a career path for monetary or status related reasons might also have something to do with it. 

[John Ryan]

I am not quite sure why anybody takes Richard Dawkins seriously. I respect him as a zoologist, even though I think his selfish gene theory is the wrong way to understand evolutionary change, but his atheistic beliefs are nonsensical. His arguments are boorishly childish. He is the Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck of Atheism.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LGm0iWPC80
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkS1B0huWX4

Dawkins says dumb things but I like watching his unedited interviews with theists. The first one is with the author of The Dawkins Delusion and the second video is with George Coyne, former directer of the Vatican Observatory. 

Edited September 26, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl