For Lack Of A Better Word, Can Nuns Still Have A 'beauty' Rout

[MarysLittleFlower]

I also asked myself some questions about "beauty" in religious life. My thought is that in cloistered communities sisters tend to be less concerned about apperances, some of them don't even use mirrors. However, in active communities when one has to come in touch with a lot of people, it's normal to be more careful about how you look; so, shaping your eyebrows and shaving legs in case of necessity it's ok. But the best is to ask the community which you are discerning with, because they may have personal rules regarding this matter. BTW, Fultonfan, the Canonesses of the Mother of God seem to be a very beautiful order ;)

 

I also find fascinating the history of "beauty" and "customs" so to speak, how people used to dress, behave and care of themselves in the past. I don't think it's something wrong in trying to appear more beautiful by changing things like make-up, jewelry or clothes, as far as it respects some boundaries. But maybe God can ask some people to give up on good but not necessary things for His sake. 

 

Julie, it seems to me like from what I read, things like jewellery were talked about differently than makeup... I mean jewellery or doing one's  hair was talked about in terms of adornment, and how a woman might adorn herself for her husband but if someone is consecrated to God or intends not to marry, it's better not to do this, etc (like giving up something for His sake). With makeup, (like eyeliner, etc) or hair dyeing it was talked about as changing something that God gave you (like hair colour). That's just my understanding. Some of the Saints or Early Church Fathers were pretty strict on vanity too and they disagreed with women wearing too many adornments, or certain types, etc. (like what St Paul said as well about what our true adornments should be). I think the issue with makeup was trying to be more beautiful in a kind of an unnatural way, and actually changing one's features like changing one's eyes or lips, it was linked to dishonesty in that way. This is just my understanding of what I read in the early Church Fathers and some Saints. The quote from Jesus to a Saint (I keep forgetting who..) really affected me.

 

I know there can be much debate about this topic. Something to pray about I guess :) Sometimes it's hard thinking about this topic too, but it's just something that's been coming into my life repeatedly over several years.

Edited September 21, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[God's Beloved]

I think it depends from person to person and the kind of work the person or community is engaged in. There are lay communities with consecrated members or secular institutes where they do not publicly reveal their status......so they do whatever average women are required to do in their place of work etc.

 

Most of the active apostolic religious I know also allow hair-dye [ especially if they are young...to avoid taunts which can be depressing]. They take care of facial and body hair etc. and use deo , mild perfume , creams etc.  Some of them do not wear a habit when they are working in situations where they wish to be discreet about their identity as they may face persecution.....so they are careful to look like the local women , even wear minimum jewellery . In fact if they don't do this they may stand out and invite attention, curiousity .

 

I think it is okay as long as it is done with a sense of detachment. CV of course don't have any restrictions but I do know some who gave up cosmetics, jewellery , bright colours completely.

 

For me personally , bright colours help me in my prayer . I usually try to do what Jesus would like me to do.

 

Whatever helps one to live with self-respect, respect for those one lives and works with , respect for the group one represents .....that is the best . I also see it based on the spirituality of incarnation in the context one lives and works.

[MarysLittleFlower]

hmm I'm not trying to make the decision of these communities for them, just speaking from my own perspective.. but I don't think that not wearing jewellery attracts attention... there are women who don't wear jewellery and they aren't religious. I think the same with not wearing perfume. With hair colouring, I know our society has an obsession with aging (rather anti aging) but I don't think there's anything shameful about grey hair. I've seen women with grey hair who are so youthful because they are joyful :)

 

I don't know I think if I were a religious, things like jewellery or perfume would distract me so much because their whole purpose is to make people more attractive to others.

Edited September 21, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[God's Beloved]

I think it is charitable to be well-groomed for the sake of people one lives and works with . In some parts of the world maybe 1in a 1000 women will not wear some cosmetic or jewellery. So looking different can not only invite attention but also be risky.....

[Julie de Sales]

Julie, it seems to me like from what I read, things like jewellery were talked about differently than makeup... I mean jewellery or doing one's hair was talked about in terms of adornment, and how a woman might adorn herself for her husband but if someone is consecrated to God or intends not to marry, it's better not to do this, etc (like giving up something for His sake). With makeup, (like eyeliner, etc) or hair dyeing it was talked about as changing something that God gave you (like hair colour). That's just my understanding. Some of the Saints or Early Church Fathers were pretty strict on vanity too and they disagreed with women wearing too many adornments, or certain types, etc. (like what St Paul said as well about what our true adornments should be). I think the issue with makeup was trying to be more beautiful in a kind of an unnatural way, and actually changing one's features like changing one's eyes or lips, it was linked to dishonesty in that way. This is just my understanding of what I read in the early Church Fathers and some Saints. The quote from Jesus to a Saint (I keep forgetting who..) really affected me.

I know there can be much debate about this topic. Something to pray about I guess :) Sometimes it's hard thinking about this topic too, but it's just something that's been coming into my life repeatedly over several years.

I didn't knew all these details, but i remember St Paul saying something about jewellery and beauty in one of his letters. However, I believe that customs change over time and maybe those saints and Fathers of the Church who were so strict on vanity in the past would be more understanding nowadays. In "Introduction to the devout life" by St Francis of Sales there is a chapter that talks about this matter and it's very well said. :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think it is charitable to be well-groomed for the sake of people one lives and works with . In some parts of the world maybe 1in a 1000 women will not wear some cosmetic or jewellery. So looking different can not only invite attention but also be risky.....

 

I agree about looking groomed and neat. I don't know I don't wear makeup and jewellery personally (I just wear medals and such things) and I don't think it's necessary, even if others do it. If it's part of someone's vocation to live simply and in poverty, I woudlnt' want to have any distractions in that case. Most jewellery is oriented towards looking more attractive, which could be a real distraction for a religious, at least it would be for me. I'm not sure what you mean by "risky"?

I didn't knew all these details, but i remember St Paul saying something about jewellery and beauty in one of his letters. However, I believe that customs change over time and maybe those saints and Fathers of the Church who were so strict on vanity in the past would be more understanding nowadays. In "Introduction to the devout life" by St Francis of Sales there is a chapter that talks about this matter and it's very well said. :)

I remember reading his chapter, he says in the end that we should dress in such a way that both the "wise" and the "young" would agree with, but if there's a conflict, to go with the wise ;) I wonder sometimes how this relates to our times... I mean, what happens when customs (like with modesty) change so much that it's popular to do things that even the "young" in those previous times would have greatly disapproved of? Should we then return to previous customs, in order to be wise? I hope I'm understanding St Francis correctly on this. I think that vanity is still applicable today, I mean back in those days in the early Church, it was also very fashionable to do certain things and many people did them, but the ECFs' still disagreed with them or with doing them too much (depending on the topic). Adornments were very popular before modern times as well.

 

I'm still trying to figure things out! lol!

Edited September 21, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[freedomreigns]

in the community I was with, which shall remain nameless, we we allowed to pluck if we had a problem with a unibrow, but for sculpting the brows.  We could shave our legs if we wanted to.  We certainly would not have used perfume or makeup.

 

 

[Fultonfan]

Thank you, everyone, for all your replies. Already, your comments have been so helpful to me and I have so enjoyed reading them. The only people with whom I can really talk about my vocation are men (and priests), so I don't want to embarrass them by asking about anything of this nature and I'm not sure they would know or understand anyway!

 

I also find the idea that women used not to bother about shaving and so on very interesting. They didn't have the means to do so anyway really, did they! I suppose it is one thing for a man to shave his face with a cut throat razor and quite another for a woman to do so...I think I'd rather have the hairy legs than cut my leg open!

I read that article about shaving with interest and I looked up another, written by quite a vulgar French feminist, but interesting nonetheless. It feels bizarre that I should be contemplating something which has become a habit of hardcore feminists. Of course, these radical feminists are ignorant of the fact that the idea of respect for women comes from God through His Church!

 

The Canonesses of the Mother of God really do seem like a beautiful order. I phoned the monastery the other day and the nun with whom I spoke (I assume the lady who answered the phone was a nun) was so sweet. God bless her! I hope to visit them in the next couple of months and stay for a week or so. 

 

They are both a contemplative and active order, so they do see people from the outside world sometimes. I suppose if we only saw one another it wouldn't bother me so much after a while. I don't know...I wouldn't like to look at someone with a hairy face! That sounds awful, but it's true. 

 

I'm not interested in dying my hair, since it will be covered anyway. As for make-up, I have all but given it up (except for mascara) without making much effort. I think I've done that through laziness, actually! :p 

 

If I'm wearing a full habit, I won't need to worry about shaving my legs but I suppose it is something that I wouldn't mind doing for the sake of my own comfort, because I have done it for so long (I am 24, so not very old :p ). It would feel very strange not to do it but what is the actual point if I'm not showing my legs? It is something that one gets used to, I suppose!

 

Maryslittleflower mentioned that a vital part of religious life is giving yourself up completely to God and giving up your old habits that are now superfluous. Thank you, you are so right. I have to remind myself that it must be for neatness and not for fashion. I can honestly say that I just would not want to draw attention to my face, that's all. 

 

I think Curiousing understands my predicament! I am half Indian so I don't have the same colour or type of hair or skin as Caucasian people. This is why Indians and Arabs have threading and all these waxing methods...they need them and I need them! Gosh, I just wonder if God wants me to be hairy!! Lord, I think that is a step too far. You're pushing me here! I'm only half joking too. I mean...gosh, does God ask that of us? I wish it was something I didn't have to consider. A relatively small but obvious cross, I guess. As Nikita92 said, these things become worse as you get older and I intend (Deo volente) to be there for life! I'm going to pray about it. I mean, it's really not a reason not to pursue this vocation. Not at all...

 

I wonder if the order will be quite strict about this because they are a traditional order, but they are active too. Hmmm, it's so hard to speculate! This is why I am so eager to stay with them so that I can really see what is their attitude is in this regard. I wouldn't like to use a razor, because hair only grows back much more quickly and thicker if one does that. Do you know that you can make a sort of wax out of sugar and water by heating it in a bowl? I've seen this done in Tunisia (and done it myself) and I wonder if they would allow that, because it's very cheap too. 

 

I was very interested to read what Maximillion said about all the sisters going to one sister for some 'grooming' once a month. It is so useful to have people here who have experience of these things. Otherwise, it just so hard to know.

 

Please keep up your replies if you have more to add. Any more insight would be greatly appreciated :) 

 

God bless you all!

[Antigonos]

Apropos makeup:  when I entered nursing school, the rules were "hair off the collar, no makeup, only a plain gold wedding ring allowed for married students". [1964].  We also had daily uniform inspection and woe to the girl with dirty shoelaces!

 

Several months later, my instructor took me aside and told me I could use a bit of rouge -- it seemed several patients had told her I was looking too pale!

 

In fact, eating a diet less rich and having a regular schedule, and not using makeup, will most probably result in a clearer complexion after a while, and actually improving one's appearance!  The business of hairy legs and underarms, btw, is a very cultural thing, and I bet it is simply a matter of getting used to it.  My eyebrows and leg hair are almost white, so I never shaved or plucked, and it never bothered me [I did do my underarms]

[Graciela]

I seem to recall reading a letter between St. Therese and her sister Celine reminding her to take tweezers along to the convent to deal with stray chin hairs, so clearly that counted as minimally expected maintenance.

 

What is difficult to imagine is trying to feel clean back in the days when Discalced Carmelite nuns were allowed a bath once per week and the remaining days had a wash up in cell with pitcher and basin.  Admittedly standards were quite different then and perhaps I am just too spoiled by having easy and cheap access to clean running water- but I am thankful that I do.

[EmilyAnn]

What is difficult to imagine is trying to feel clean back in the days when Discalced Carmelite nuns were allowed a bath once per week and the remaining days had a wash up in cell with pitcher and basin.  Admittedly standards were quite different then and perhaps I am just too spoiled by having easy and cheap access to clean running water- but I am thankful that I do.

 

That is still practice in some places. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Apropos makeup:  when I entered nursing school, the rules were "hair off the collar, no makeup, only a plain gold wedding ring allowed for married students". [1964].  We also had daily uniform inspection and woe to the girl with dirty shoelaces!

 

Several months later, my instructor took me aside and told me I could use a bit of rouge -- it seemed several patients had told her I was looking too pale!

 

In fact, eating a diet less rich and having a regular schedule, and not using makeup, will most probably result in a clearer complexion after a while, and actually improving one's appearance!  The business of hairy legs and underarms, btw, is a very cultural thing, and I bet it is simply a matter of getting used to it.  My eyebrows and leg hair are almost white, so I never shaved or plucked, and it never bothered me [I did do my underarms]

 

I can say that when I stopped wearing makeup, my skin actually improved over time! I was kind of ruining it with all the chemicals... also my eyelashes were basically nonexistent, and since I gave up mascara too they've actually grown a lot and got darker. I'm sort of interested about the stuff they put in cosmetics.

Edited September 22, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

I just wanted to say that I'm still trying to figure out all this! and it was very difficult for me at first, thinking of religious life, because I actually did worry about the vain questions and not just keeping yourself neat etc. With time, God helped with this.

 

I think it wouldn't be helpful as a religious to do things for fashion or looking more attractive or fashionable, like shaping eyebrows to make them the "perfect" Hollywood shape.

 

With shaving legs and how some feminists are against this... hmm I'm definitely not in the feminist movement. Im just thinking of the women who didn't/dont' shave their legs for reasons completely unrelated to feminism. For example, women prior to the fashion changes mentioned above. I'm kind of just curious where this idea is from in the first place... I mean, most women don't shave their arms and arm hair is considered perfectly acceptable :) how are legs different? if anyone knows any historical facts/theories, please let me know, Im just interested! still thinking :) it seems like before it was fashionable for women to wear sleeveless or shorter dresses, the idea of shaving those areas was just not discussed at all or cared about. If a woman today doesn't show those parts, how does that reflect on her decision to shave or not.

Edited September 22, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[jumpfrog]

 

What is difficult to imagine is trying to feel clean back in the days when Discalced Carmelite nuns were allowed a bath once per week and the remaining days had a wash up in cell with pitcher and basin.  Admittedly standards were quite different then and perhaps I am just too spoiled by having easy and cheap access to clean running water- but I am thankful that I do.

 

Having just come back from a short trip, I was reminded about how little I was bothered by not having a proper wash every day, which I normally require.  I noticed this when I was working on a farm too, where you might imagine that a daily wash was particularly needed!  

 

There must be something about the combination of city living, commuting, going in and out of various environments, stress (even the low-grade stress that comes from constantly encountering lots of strangers), and wearing makeup that makes me feel gross and stinky if I can't shower every day.  However, when on the farm, if I wiped under my arms and 'bits', rinsed my feet well, and splashed my face, I was good to go several days without a thorough wash...and I have VERY oily skin and hair.  My skin clears up nicely too...

[MarysLittleFlower]

Interesting how we get used to different things...