For Lack Of A Better Word, Can Nuns Still Have A 'beauty' Rout

[Fultonfan]

Hello everyone, 

 

I do realise that this is my first post ever on this forum and I don't want you to think I am very superficial (though a friend told me that I am obviously not made for religious life because I asked this question!), but this is something which is on my mind! I am not talking about having a face wash with a cleanser and a toner with anti-ageing moisturiser to finish. I'm talking about being able to shape your eyebrows and the usual facial hair maintenance that women go through. Is it vain of me to ask this question? I don't really know. I'm not sure it's actually that unreasonable, to be honest. Priests shave, so what is the difference? It's about looking tidy, not attractive. 

 

I accept that it will depend on each order but surely there is some sort of general idea? I'm actually looking at the Canonesses of the Mother of God in France, who are a traditional order (Deo gratias!) and I am looking at them primarily because their mass is exclusively Old Rite and of course they wear a full habit etc. 

They follow the rule of St Augustine but nothing is mentioned in there (I wouldn't dare to suggest that this was an oversight by St Augustine :P ).

 

Any ideas? 

[Blessed&Grateful]

I do know some orders allow for grooming but it really depends on each individual. The community I discerned with were okay with moisturizing, hair management (including facial) etc but drew the line at cosmetics, hair coloring etc.

[be_thou_my_vision]

It really depends on the community. Some communities do kind of dictate what the Sisters are allowed to do in that department (like shaving of legs, plucking eyebrows, stuff along those lines) and others just say "Sister, take care of yourself; do what you need to do." Its really not a stupid question. You would be surprised at how often Sisters are asked these types of questions. When I was in the convent, it was not uncommon to have questions along these lines. I mean, hey, a young lady wants to know what life will be "on the inside," through and through, so practical questions like these are certainly included! God Bless on your journey.

[nikita92]

As one grows older.. certain hair on certain parts of the body (upper lip, chin line, eyebrow) can grow more rapidly due to the decline in the female hormones. A small pair of scissors and tweezers are a must for me! (Lip balm too) Not everyone wants to or cares to pay attention to these grooming practices..but hopefully a community would not forbade one in using these instruments should they feel the need in doing so. Some communities don't allow mirrors as well.

[inperpetuity]

I really think it depends on how much contact a community has with the public.  Cloistered Carmelites really don't need mirrors even though they do occasionally have to go out for doctor appt.s, etc.  The Canonesses of the Mother of God (another beautiful community, btw in my opinion) do have somewhat of an active apostolate I believe, but they are also French, so that could be another deciding factor.  Europeans and Americans have a slight difference in their ideas about personal care practices from what I'm told.  I have also wondered about these types of things, so I don't think your alone.

Edited September 21, 2013 by inperpetuity

[MarysLittleFlower]

Just a comment in general first... I'm not saying that you are vain, I don't know your heart, obviously, and talking more about fears that I used to have about religious life. I think it's important to remember that as nuns, they are completely belonging to God. When a woman tries to look beautiful, to please others, like her husband, - that is one of the things that nuns leave behind (so no jewellery, etc) - because they only belong to Jesus. I think if this is a difficulty, I think prayer can help and also if someone actually joins an order, I think just being forced to leave behind previous practices would help too, - because eventually it would just cease to be an issue. I'm not saying that you are vain or struggle with this. Just a general comment :)

 

I think that it's good to not change how God made us either, I mean yes grooming is fine (washing your face, brushing your teeth, trimming nails, taking care of yourself etc) - and it's important to look tidy. So maybe it depends on what you mean. There are certain things that are done not just for neatness, but because it's the fashion. For example, shaping eyebrows.. I noticed that naturally, eyebrows look much neater than how they tend to grow back after being shaped. I think it's more about fashion, personally. Personally I like the natural look that God gave us, more. If someone used to shape their eyebrows and then joined a convent where they can't do that anymore - they might grow back a little messier at first, I dont' know if this changes with time. But I think intentions are important here... I think it's good for nuns to not be too concerned with how they look, beyond just being clean and neat looking. If someone's eyebrows are not really "fashionable", it wouldn't really matter. They don't have to be perfectly shaped like in the magazines :) I think if someone shapes their eyebrows, it could maybe help them to 'transition' before entering, to a more natural look. I think intentions are important to pray about as well. There were some fears that I had when I first started discerning that have sort of disappeared with prayer and time, so I'd just pray about these things :) I'm still on the journey though and I'm still discerning my vocation!

 

I did kind of wonder, and this is maybe a silly question, but I wondered about shaving legs. I mean - the legs are fully covered anyway. I wonder if this is a modern practice or not? Did women shave legs when it wasn't the "fashion" to show one's legs at all? For example - most of human history in the West, lol. Is this just something that started being done when skirts became shorter and it became popular for women to wear transparent stockings? Sometimes I wonder why this custom exists, and how it developed. With nuns, I don't know I mean it kind of seems like a vain thing to me? I came across this article that suggests that women didn't really ever shave their hair until the early 20th century when they began wearing sleeveless and shorter dresses. If someone wears long dresses and sleeves (like women mostly always have anyway), or is a nun, - what should they think of this? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/625/who-decided-women-should-shave-their-legs-and-underarms  I know it's sometimes the feminists who say not to shave legs, etc, but they also don't wear long skirts all the time, - and it seems in history, women didn't show their legs and didn't shave them either. I guess that's something to think about for those who want to dress that way or are thinking of being nuns. Any thoughts?

[Lilllabettt]

With nuns, I don't know I mean it kind of seems like a vain thing to me? I came across this article that suggests that women didn't really ever shave their hair until the early 20th century when they began wearing sleeveless and shorter dresses. If someone wears long dresses and sleeves (like women mostly always have anyway), or is a nun, - what should they think of this? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/625/who-decided-women-should-shave-their-legs-and-underarms  I know it's sometimes the feminists who say not to shave legs, etc, but they also don't wear long skirts all the time, - and it seems in history, women didn't show their legs and didn't shave them either. I guess that's something to think about for those who want to dress that way or are thinking of being nuns. Any thoughts?

 

 

i maybe don't understand your question. What do you mean what  "should" people think? For goodness sakes. I imagine that people "should" have independent thoughts about whether or not to shave their legs. I personally feel it could almost be a sin to waste time pondering such frivolous things.

 

My guess is if you would like to shave your legs, you had better have at it. On the other hand if you would rather not like to shave your legs, probably you ought to go ahead and not shave them. As far as I know there are no pronouncements from on high concerning the moral dimensions of female hair care, but if you do find some you can be sure the person handing them down is a lunatic.

 

Regarding your last sentence: women who are thinking of being nuns should by no means ape at being nuns. That can be a sin, too.  they should dress and behave themselves in a manner consistent with their state in life.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2013 by Lilllabettt

[Gabriela]

I think that it's good to not change how God made us either

 

Clearly you are young and bristly hairs have not yet started popping out of your body like weeds in the most unexpected of places.  :P 

 

Seriously: I have met some sisters who did not do the "essential" plucking and it was really hard not to notice the "lawn". I'm not judging them. God bless them for not caring at all. But thank God they were cloistered. Cuz I do think it makes a difference in "public witness" if a sister goes out and about in the world not looking "neat". No, she doesn't have to meet the world's standards. Hopefully her joyful glow will speak all that's necessary. But if she doesn't do the bare minimum to not "distract" people who engage with her, then the potential for someone to walk away thinking something uncharitable may go up. And that'd be a shame, cuz sisters deserve respect, not judgment.

 

I do think there's a double standard for younger sisters and older ones, though. No one expects their grandma to pluck all that stuff on her face. We tend to find our grandmas more endearing when they do have such quirks. But if you're in your twenties or thirties... And yes, my weeds started sprouting in my twenties! (Something for you young 'uns to look forward to! ;-)

[MarysLittleFlower]

i maybe don't understand your question. What do you mean what  "should" people think? For goodness sakes. I imagine that people "should" have independent thoughts about whether or not to shave their legs. I personally feel it could almost be a sin to waste time pondering such frivolous things.

 

My guess is if you would like to shave your legs, you had better have at it. On the other hand if you would rather not like to shave your legs, probably you ought to go ahead and not shave them. As far as I know there are no pronouncements from on high concerning the moral dimensions of female hair care, but if you do find some you can be sure the person handing them down is a lunatic.

 

Regarding your last sentence: women who are thinking of being nuns should by no means ape at being nuns. That can be a sin, too.  they should dress and behave themselves in a manner consistent with their state in life.

 

Lilllabettt, I think sometimes we need to ask the "should' questions. For example, something could be connected to an important idea, or could not be. For example, there are early Church Fathers who spoke against makeup (like eyeliner, etc) that changes the way that God made the face. I mean actually changing the features. In fact Jesus even mentioned it to a Saint that it offends Him when people paint their faces like the idols to be more beautiful than how He made them - in those words. I realize there are people who might disagree. If someone disagrees, I would recommend taking this to prayer and it's not my intention to have a debate about that here. I'm trying to make an example about how something that might appear trivial, could actually be connected to a greater idea that is important. With shaving legs, - if it's just something that developed from a change in the fashions? If so, and a woman doesn't follow these fashions and so doesn't shave her legs (for example if she doesn't show her legs) - others might look at her as 'weird' and might expect nuns to follow this custom because "everyone does". But if it's just based on fashion, - then why is there such an expectation for nuns to follow it? the way we understand these things can actually affect our own choices too, that's why I used that language.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the last part about not living like a nun if someone is not a nun... a woman might choose to wear long dresses, or midcalf dresses with opaque tights, for different reasons, and they might not be related to discernment. It's not a "nun" thing to do. For most of the history in the West, and perhaps in the world, it's been just the regular thing to do. :) if a woman chooses to do this, it doesn't mean she's trying to be a nun, it could be for various reasons.

Clearly you are young and bristly hairs have not yet started popping out of your body like weeds in the most unexpected of places.  :P 

 

Seriously: I have met some sisters who did not do the "essential" plucking and it was really hard not to notice the "lawn". I'm not judging them. God bless them for not caring at all. But thank God they were cloistered. Cuz I do think it makes a difference in "public witness" if a sister goes out and about in the world not looking "neat". No, she doesn't have to meet the world's standards. Hopefully her joyful glow will speak all that's necessary. But if she doesn't do the bare minimum to not "distract" people who engage with her, then the potential for someone to walk away thinking something uncharitable may go up. And that'd be a shame, cuz sisters deserve respect, not judgment.

 

I do think there's a double standard for younger sisters and older ones, though. No one expects their grandma to pluck all that stuff on her face. We tend to find our grandmas more endearing when they do have such quirks. But if you're in your twenties or thirties... And yes, my weeds started sprouting in my twenties! (Something for you young 'uns to look forward to! ;-)

I realize that people might be different in this way... I was referring to following fashions, for example wanting eyebrows to be extra neat like they have been threaded, like in the magazines... instead of just a natural look. Things like that. I know there have been Saints who never looked in the mirror, etc, - I think if someone is called to religious life, such ideas are something for them to pray about. Not doing certain things could even be a humbling thing.

Edited September 21, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Lilllabettt]

Lilllabettt, I think sometimes we need to ask the "should' questions. For example, something could be connected to an important idea, or could not be. For example, there are early Church Fathers who spoke against makeup (like eyeliner, etc) that changes the way that God made the face. I mean actually changing the features. In fact Jesus even mentioned it to a Saint that it offends Him when people paint their faces like the idols to be more beautiful than how He made them - in those words. I realize there are people who might disagree. If someone disagrees, I would recommend taking this to prayer and it's not my intention to have a debate about that here. I'm trying to make an example about how something that might appear trivial, could actually be connected to a greater idea that is important. With shaving legs, - if it's just something that developed from a change in the fashions? If so, and a woman doesn't follow these fashions and so doesn't shave her legs (for example if she doesn't show her legs) - others might look at her as 'weird' and might expect nuns to follow this custom because "everyone does". But if it's just based on fashion, - then why is there such an expectation for nuns to follow it? the way we understand these things can actually affect our own choices too, that's why I used that language.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the last part about not living like a nun if someone is not a nun... a woman might choose to wear long dresses, or midcalf dresses with opaque tights, for different reasons, and they might not be related to discernment. It's not a "nun" thing to do. For most of the history in the West, and perhaps in the world, it's been just the regular thing to do. :) if a woman chooses to do this, it doesn't mean she's trying to be a nun, it could be for various reasons.

I realize that people might be different in this way... I was referring to following fashions, for example wanting eyebrows to be extra neat like they have been threaded, like in the magazines... instead of just a natural look. Things like that. I know there have been Saints who never looked in the mirror, etc, - I think if someone is called to religious life, such ideas are something for them to pray about. Not doing certain things could even be a humbling thing.

 

There is no "should" question to be asked with regards to leg shaving.  The question has absolutely no moral import whatsoever.

I  think it is bizarre that you should be researching such a thing.  I honestly think you may have got into the wrong sort of books.

Do you have a spiritual director? regular confessor?

 

I do NOT think you should take these things to prayer. You need to speak to someone in your real life about what is going on. Maybe print out this thread and show it to a priest you trust.

[MarysLittleFlower]

There is no "should" question to be asked with regards to leg shaving.  The question has absolutely no moral import whatsoever.

I  think it is bizarre that you should be researching such a thing.  I honestly think you may have got into the wrong sort of books.

Do you have a spiritual director? regular confessor?

 

I do NOT think you should take these things to prayer. You need to speak to someone in your real life about what is going on. Maybe print out this thread and show it to a priest you trust.

 

I don't really understand. Because I'm looking into the origins of a custom, there's something wrong with me? I like researching history and history of fashion etc and sometimes by researching, we can ask questions. I basically just asked a question, - if the origins of this custom are related to fashion and shorter skirts, how does this reflect on the societal expectation for women to shave if they don't show their legs. I thought of it because another poster brought it up. But I remember before, there was a discussion about nuns shaving, and I somehow thought it was odd, because the only reason women shave their legs is because that's the fashion if you're going to show them, but nuns don't show them, so who cares?

 

The reason I'm interested in the topic of fashions and customs (I just mean in general) is because I used to do a lot to change my appearance, and eventually I felt convicted about this in prayer and this took much time, but eventually I understood more about the reason. Since I was following many popular customs, I began looking into the idea of customs in general and how they develop. Often when people research history, they ask questions.

 

Since you mentioned books, the books I'm currently reading are on a completely different topic. I honestly don't even think I've read a book on this topic, except looking through an illustrated history of fashion! I just read Catholic books and some novels.

Edited September 21, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Lilllabettt]

because the only reason women shave their legs is because that's the fashion if you're going to show them, but nuns don't show them, so who cares?

 

no. that is not the only reason women shave their legs.

 

 

Since you mentioned books, the books I'm currently reading are on a completely different topic. I honestly don't even think I've read a book on this topic, except looking through an illustrated history of fashion! I just read Catholic books and some novels.

 

 Not all Catholic books are "good." Or rather, not all Catholic books are good for everyone. Imitation of Christ was very good for St Therese and very bad for me.  Some Catholic reading,--- especially private revelations (approved or not) and lives of the Saints-- are better approached with caution.  There is nothing worse for a vulnerable soul than unsuitable reading. It can really disfigure the spiritual life. When I was in the novitiate we had a particular bookcase in the library we could choose our reading from, and the collection there was carefully curated for this very reason.

 

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

 

no. that is not the only reason women shave their legs.

 

 

 Not all Catholic books are "good." Or rather, not all Catholic books are good for everyone. Imitation of Christ was very good for St Therese and very bad for me.  Some Catholic reading,--- especially private revelations (approved or not) and lives of the Saints-- are better approached with caution.  There is nothing worse for a vulnerable soul than unsuitable reading. It can really disfigure the spiritual life. When I was in the novitiate we had a particular bookcase in the library we could choose our reading from, and the collection there was carefully curated for this very reason.

 

 

 

 

Lilllabettt, I want to be honest... it's kind of hard for me how sometimes on these forums, when I say my opinion, people start discussing me personally instead of the topic. I'm here to just talk about the topic. I would not address this except that it's happened many times on this forum - not with you, but with various posters. I saw it's happened to others as well. I know people want to help, but we don't really know others' spiritual journeys on the phorum.

 

Yes it's important to read the right books. Most of the books I like to read are simply about God's love, like "I believe in love", or "He and I". Those are the ones I like to read the most. Those have only helped me. Anyways, I think this is something between a person and God and a spiritual director :)

 

Back to the topic... what is the other reason why women shave? In that article it only mentioned fashion. I don't think it's unsanitary to have hair on legs, I mean we still have hair on arms :P it seems to be more aesthetic, and that only came up when fashions changed and skirts became shorter? anyways if I'm missing something let me know.

Edited September 21, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[maximillion]

To the original poster (who by the way didn't mention leg shaving!), I think there is a difference between women in an active order and those in the cloister.

 

I doubt anyone in the cloister neatens their eyebrows. In my own community we had no mirrors and I know this is true for lots of cloistered communities. If you can't see your own face you lose interest in that sort of thing very quickly! (and other things become your focus) I can't speak for what happens in active communities but once a month we used to go to a specific room in the Infirmary where one Sister would be designated to 'hairdress' and tend to any other grooming issues for her Sisters.

 

We were permitted hair of any length under our headgear (full wimple and veil) but most kept it short simply because this is less time consuming and easier to manage.

I went to have an inch or so cut off about every 10 weeks and found this worked well for me. I never did anything to my eyebrows in or out of the convent and don't now.

 

As for facial hair, there was an electric razor in the professed Sisters' shower area. I don't recall ever having seen anyone use it, but maybe I just wasn't present when they did. 

 

As for moisturising, I regularly send E45 cream to a friend in the cloister because she has dry skin and eczema, and while her community would provide this for her, it is something of a more personal nature which I can give as well as the other more generic gifts which go into common usage. She is a Carmelite.

[Julie de Sales]

I also asked myself some questions about "beauty" in religious life. My thought is that in cloistered communities sisters tend to be less concerned about apperances, some of them don't even use mirrors. However, in active communities when one has to come in touch with a lot of people, it's normal to be more careful about how you look; so, shaping your eyebrows and shaving legs in case of necessity it's ok. But the best is to ask the community which you are discerning with, because they may have personal rules regarding this matter. BTW, Fultonfan, the Canonesses of the Mother of God seem to be a very beautiful order ;)

 

I also find fascinating the history of "beauty" and "customs" so to speak, how people used to dress, behave and care of themselves in the past. I don't think it's something wrong in trying to appear more beautiful by changing things like make-up, jewelry or clothes, as far as it respects some boundaries. But maybe God can ask some people to give up on good but not necessary things for His sake.