Interview With Pope Francis In America Magazine

[Apteka]

Quotation from the Ravenna Document on ecumenical councils:

 

 

Unlike diocesan and regional synods, an Ecumenical Council is not an “institution” whose frequency can be regulated by canons; it is rather an “event”, a kairos inspired by the Holy Spirit who guides the Church so as to engender within it the institutions which it needs and which respond to its nature. This harmony between the Church and the councils is so profound that, even after the break between East and West which rendered impossible the holding of Ecumenical Councils in the strict sense of the term, both Churches continued to hold councils whenever serious crises arose. These councils gathered together the bishops of local Churches in communion with the See of Rome or, although understood in a different way, with the See of Constantinople, respectively. In the Roman Catholic Church, some of these councils held in the West were regarded as ecumenical.

 

 

An interesting use of the past tense in the final sentence.

 

That is interesting and it would imply that the Second Vatican Council is also not ecumenical. What bothers me about all these dialogue agreements is that their method resembles Zeno's Henotikon, i.e. unity in ambiguity. Vague statements of faith everyone can agree on are not the way to go. Before the West can engage in ecumenism, it has to first accept itself.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Apteka

[Apteka]

I find it interesting that the media seems to like Pope Francis.

 

I am quite open about the fact that I miss Pope Benedict. He really did love the liturgy, and that - probably more than anything - endeared him to me.

 

The secular media, LGTB groups, and progressives of various stripes seem to be very pleased with Francis.

[Apotheoun]

That is interesting and it would imply that the Second Vatican Council is also not ecumenical. What bothers me about all these dialogue agreements is that their method resembles Zeno's Henotikon, i.e. unity in ambiguity. Vague statements of faith everyone can agree on are not the way to go. Before the West can engage in ecumenism, it has to first accept itself.

In one sense you are right (i.e., about the henotikon), but in my own experience that is only true of the Catholic side in the dialogue, because I have no doubt that the Orthodox will never accept what they see as the theological innovations of the West. But hey, I am an ecumenical pessimist.

[Apteka]

In one sense you are right (i.e., about the henotikon), but in my own experience that is only true of the Catholic side in the dialogue, because I have no doubt that the Orthodox will never accept what they see as the theological innovations of the West. But hey, I am an ecumenical pessimist.

 

I would agree, the West is like a teen with low self esteem, she does what everyone else does just to fit in and be accepted.

[Apotheoun]

The secular media, LGTB groups, and progressives of various stripes seem to be very pleased with Francis.

I have to admit that I do not see any possible way of bringing people to Christ while simultaneously ignoring their sinful behavior or worse by telling them it is okay to sin. Those who sin, as scripture says, are slaves to sin. Metanoia requires a change of mind, i.e., a real change of moral character by embracing what the ancient Church called the "way of life."

 

And here is what the Didache (a first century Christian text) teaches about the way of life:

 

"You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not forswear yourself, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued; for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life."

[AugustineA]

And it begins...

 

pope-cnn.jpg

 

:pinch: *hugs catechism* whyyy...

[KnightofChrist]

And it begins...

pope-cnn.jpg

On the way home from work the radio media was buzzing that "the Pope says Catholics need to worry less about abortion and other social issues and more about making the Church welcoming for all." Edited September 19, 2013 by KnightofChrist

[Not The Philosopher]

I have to admit that I do not see any possible way of bringing people to Christ while simultaneously ignoring their sinful behavior or worse by telling them it is okay to sin. Those who sin, as scripture says, are slaves to sin. Metanoia requires a change of mind, i.e., a real change of moral character by embracing what the ancient Church called the "way of life."

 

And here is what the Didache (a first century Christian text) teaches about the way of life:

 

"You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not forswear yourself, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued; for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life."

 

I don't think anyone here is trying to downplay or whitewash the seriousness of sin, or the need for repentance. It's more that few people are converted merely by being told that the Church disapproves of their behavior, especially if they have difficulty seeing how their lives could even be changed in the way demanded of them. It seems more to me that people start giving up their sinful ways because they start falling in love with the Church and are willing to make the sacrifices required to make things work out.

 

Mind you, I'm not trying to say that Pope Francis' approach is necessarily the best way to go about things, or that there isn't in a lot of quarters a failure to take sin seriously; we all need some tough love. And, ultimately, not matter how tactfully you frame things, a lot of people will just not listen because of attachment to sin. There are always going to be people who run away from hard sayings that they need to hear. It's more that people need something more than hard sayings to subsist on.

[Apotheoun]

I don't think anyone here is trying to downplay or whitewash the seriousness of sin, or the need for repentance. It's more that few people are converted merely by being told that the Church disapproves of their behavior, especially if they have difficulty seeing how their lives could even be changed in the way demanded of them. It seems more to me that people start giving up their sinful ways because they start falling in love with the Church and are willing to make the sacrifices required to make things work out.

 

Mind you, I'm not trying to say that Pope Francis' approach is necessarily the best way to go about things, or that there isn't in a lot of quarters a failure to take sin seriously; we all need some tough love. And, ultimately, not matter how tactfully you frame things, a lot of people will just not listen because of attachment to sin. There are always going to be people who run away from hard sayings that they need to hear. It's more that people need something more than hard sayings to subsist on.

I guess it is a matter of interpretation. Pope Francis' remarks are open to different interpretations, which is why the news media is already producing sensationalist headlines. I only know this, the Apostolic Kerygma includes the moral teaching of the Church, and so it is not possible to preach Christ crucified and not simultaneously preach against the very vices and sins that made His sacrifice necessary in the first place.

[Vincent Vega]

I'm not convinced that Francis is doing more good than ill with these soundbytes he's giving. Those who don't have any idea about the teachings of the Roman Church (which, regrettably, includes many of the members thereof) could very easily believe that the things he's saying could be translated as what the media is portraying him as having said. I don't think he means them in that way -- and of course, the long-term results will remain to be seen -- but at the moment, these "loose lips" and sweeping statements seem to me to possibly be occasion for widespread scandal.

[Lilllabettt]

I have had a stomach ache about Papa since the thing with the spiritual bouquet.  It hurt my feelings, which ... maybe I don't have a right to have my feelings hurt by such a thing ... but there it is. I always say "he is being misunderstood" and of course he is ... that is some comfort ... but I wish he would talk so that interpretation was not necessary.  And the thing is I agree on principal with the approach ... legalism is no way to do Christianity. But I did not see that we were in danger of becoming legalistic. Then again that is only the view from my little window... what do I know about the universal Church.

[dUSt]

Devout Catholics will not become bad Catholics because of how he says things. Lukewarm Catholics may stay lukewarm, and bad Catholics may stay bad. Oh well. The thing is though, people are talking about the Church, and the Pope, and it's not negative. Praise the Lord.

[Nihil Obstat]

Devout Catholics will not become bad Catholics because of how he says things. Lukewarm Catholics may stay lukewarm, and bad Catholics may stay bad. Oh well. The thing is though, people are talking about the Church, and the Pope, and it's not negative. Praise the Lord.

That is not what we want though, is it?

[Maggyie]

I think the Pope's words would be great if they were designed just for practicing Catholics, like most are on Phatmass. I think we "trying to be devout" Catholics DO tend to be legalistic, put the cart before the horse, focus on contraception and gay marriage and excellent liturgy etc to the detriment of the Gospel message.

 

But for 90% of the Catholic world, that's not the problem we have.

 

And then, for instance, right to life IS the gospel message - because we are loved by God we have dignity, and because we have dignity we can't be discarded like trash, no matter how small we are. I know sometimes the pro-life movement stinks at explaining that.

 

When he said "I am a son of the Church" it almost came off like he was saying "this is the way it is, sure I would change it if I could, but I'm loyal to mama, see."

 

Maybe it's just the translation. I'm sure it's just the translation.

[Basilisa Marie]

Devout Catholics will not become bad Catholics because of how he says things. Lukewarm Catholics may stay lukewarm, and bad Catholics may stay bad. Oh well. The thing is though, people are talking about the Church, and the Pope, and it's not negative. Praise the Lord.

 

:clap3: