Interview With Pope Francis In America Magazine

[Apotheoun]

Era, I have known many priests, both good and bad, and I have respect for the office of the priesthood, but I do not have, nor will I ever have, a cultish devotion to any particular priest or bishop. I am sure that Pope Francis is a nice man, but I simply do not see this "special charism" that you are talking about, and your constant reference to his being a Jesuit does not strike me as all that impressive. I have met a couple great Jesuits, but their membership in that order did not make them exceptional. They seemed like good priests to me, but I would not assign any "special charism" to them just because they were religious priests instead of secular priests. As far as self-righteousness is concerned, speaking the truth is not self-righteous, or Christ - who always spoke the truth - would have been guilty of that sin Himself, and all Christians know that Christ was sinless. So as I said, I see Pope Francis as a nice man who I agree with on some issues and disagree with on others. Although even my judgment about him being "nice" is based upon what I read in the media, because after all I do not know him personally. Finally, I simply see no point in deifying him and making him into some kind of living saint.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Apotheoun

[KnightofChrist]

Era what do you mean by charism? What special (unique) supernatural extraordinary gift of God (charism) does Pope Francis have? I don't see him being more extra special than other Popes. So please explain.

[Era Might]

Era, I have know many priest, both good and bad, and I have respect for the office of a priest, but I do not have, nor will I ever have, a cultish devotion to any particular priest or bishop. I am sure that Pope Francis is a nice man, but I simply do not see this "special charism" that you are talking about, and your constant reference to his being a Jesuit does not strike me as all that impressive. I have met a couple great Jesuits, but their membership in that order did not make them exceptional. They seem like good priests to me, but I would not assign any "special charism" to them just because they were religious priests instead of secular priests. As far as self-righteousness is concerned, speaking the truth is not self-righteous, or Christ - who always spoke the truth - would have been guilty of that sin Himself, and all Christians know that Christ was sinless. So as I said, I see Pope Francis as a nice man - although I do not know him personally and so even that judgment is simply one formed by what I see in the media - who I agree with on some issues and disagree with on others. I simply see no point in deifying him and making him into some kind of living saint.

 

That strikes me as a Protestant mentality. Catholics have always been attuned to the here and now...apparitions, devotions, feasts, saints, prophets, popes, holy men, snatching relics before the saint died, etc. etc. In the New Testament, of course, the exchange of charisms was very important, as St. Paul discusses when he encourages everyone how to share their charisms. It's one of the things the Pope talks about in the interview:

 

The ministers of the Gospel must be people who can warm the hearts of the people, who walk through the dark night with them, who know how to dialogue and to descend themselves into their people’s night, into the darkness, but without getting lost. The people of God want pastors, not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials. The bishops, particularly, must be able to support the movements of God among their people with patience, so that no one is left behind. But they must also be able to accompany the flock that has a flair for finding new paths.

 

What is remarkable about what the Pope saying is one can see how deeply rooted in prayer it is. And Jesuit spirituality. The fact that he is a Jesuit is very significant, because it is part of who he is, and in the context of the historical moment, he is bringing something to an office that is not Jesuit. As I said in my initial response, it is clear that this man is a Jesuit, thinks like a Jesuit, prays like a Jesuit, and that is a VERY unique charism in the context of the papacy.

[Era Might]

Era what do you mean by charism? What special (unique) supernatural extraordinary gift of God (charism) does Pope Francis have? I don't see him being more extra special than other Popes. So please explain.

 

I would say his charism is prophecy. He is, after all, a religious priest, and a Jesuit, and that charism of the prophetic is what he brings to an office which is normally associated with diocesan priests.

 

“Religious men and women are prophets,” says the pope. “They are those who have chosen a following of Jesus that imitates his life in obedience to the Father, poverty, community life and chastity. In this sense, the vows cannot end up being caricatures; otherwise, for example, community life becomes hell, and chastity becomes a way of life for unfruitful bachelors. The vow of chastity must be a vow of fruitfulness. In the church, the religious are called to be prophets in particular by demonstrating how Jesus lived on this earth, and to proclaim how the kingdom of God will be in its perfection. A religious must never give up prophecy. This does not mean opposing the hierarchical part of the church, although the prophetic function and the hierarchical structure do not coincide. I am talking about a proposal that is always positive, but it should not cause timidity. Let us think about what so many great saints, monks and religious men and women have done, from St. Anthony the Abbot onward. Being prophets may sometimes imply making waves. I do not know how to put it.... Prophecy makes noise, uproar, some say ‘a mess.’ But in reality, the charism of religious people is like yeast: prophecy announces the spirit of the Gospel.”

[Apotheoun]

That strikes me as a Protestant mentality. Catholics have always been attuned to the here and now...apparitions, devotions, feasts, saints, prophets, popes, holy men, snatching relics before the saint died, etc. etc. In the New Testament, of course, the exchange of charisms was very important, as St. Paul discusses when he encourages everyone how to share their charisms. It's one of the things the Pope talks about in the interview:

 

“Religious men and women are prophets,” says the pope. “They are those who have chosen a following of Jesus that imitates his life in obedience to the Father, poverty, community life and chastity. In this sense, the vows cannot end up being caricatures; otherwise, for example, community life becomes hell, and chastity becomes a way of life for unfruitful bachelors. The vow of chastity must be a vow of fruitfulness. In the church, the religious are called to be prophets in particular by demonstrating how Jesus lived on this earth, and to proclaim how the kingdom of God will be in its perfection. A religious must never give up prophecy. This does not mean opposing the hierarchical part of the church, although the prophetic function and the hierarchical structure do not coincide. I am talking about a proposal that is always positive, but it should not cause timidity. Let us think about what so many great saints, monks and religious men and women have done, from St. Anthony the Abbot onward. Being prophets may sometimes imply making waves. I do not know how to put it.... Prophecy makes noise, uproar, some say ‘a mess.’ But in reality, the charism of religious people is like yeast: prophecy announces the spirit of the Gospel.”

Every Christian - by baptism is a priest and prophet - so I am not gonna buy what you are selling, and just because Pope Francis said something that you like in an interview it does not follow that everyone else is going to assign that particular comment an earth-shattering character.

 

Finally, as far as Protestantism is concerned, there is nothing more Protestant than the cult of personality. Do I respect Pope Francis? I respect his office, but I do not know him at all as a person, because I have never even met the man, and so the respect I give to him is in fact based solely upon his office as a bishop. Perhaps that is why I refuse to turn him into some kind of idol.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

What is remarkable about what the Pope saying is one can see how deeply rooted in prayer it is. And Jesuit spirituality. The fact that he is a Jesuit is very significant, because it is part of who he is, and in the context of the historical moment, he is bringing something to an office that is not Jesuit. As I said in my initial response, it is clear that this man is a Jesuit, thinks like a Jesuit, prays like a Jesuit, and that is a VERY unique charism in the context of the papacy.

Pope Benedict also seemed deeply rooted in prayer, both personal and liturgical. So I fail to see why you want to focus so much attention on Pope Francis. Do you think he would be interested in all this attention?

[Era Might]

Every Christian - by baptism is a priest and prophet - so I am not gonna buy what you are selling, and just because Pope Francis said something that you like in an interview it does not follow that everyone else is going to assign that particular comment an earth-shattering character.

 

Finally, as far as Protestantism is concerned, there is nothing more Protestant than the cult of personality. Do I respect Pope Francis? I respect his office, but I do not know him at all as a person, because I have never even met the man, and so the respect I give to him is in fact based solely upon his office as a bishop. Perhaps that is why I refuse to turn him into some kind of idol.

 

You really have a unique charism of missing the point. Cult of personality? Lol. Forget it.

[Apotheoun]

You really have a unique charism of missing the point. Cult of personality? Lol. Forget it.

Actually I get your point. I just do not agree with you.

 

You never answered my earlier question: is Pope Francis poor? 

 

Instead you just copy and paste quotes where Pope Francis talks about poverty. As my Orthodox friend said to me about him, "Talk, talk, talk, talk. That seems to be all he does."

Edited September 23, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

By the way I have been poor, and I am not financially well off at the present moment. Does Pope Francis have to worry where his next meal is coming from? Does he suffer the distress caused by being unemployed? Does he have to worry about where he is going to sleep at night? Or does he worry about sheltering himself from the weather? Quite frankly he looks pretty well off living in the papal guest apartments.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Just to be clear about this: I do not begrudge Pope Francis the fact that all his needs are being met. I do not wish real poverty on anyone.

[Aloysius]

by that same token all the vows of poverty of monks in well off monasteries, well basically all modern monasteries even in the desert these days, are pointless... all their needs are being met, after all, they don't really have to worry about that from day to day.

 

Pope Francis is going as close to poverty as he can without degrading the office of the Papacy... please God don't let him sell off the Vatican and live on the streets like he probably wishes he could in the back of his mind.  his talk, I think, is sincere... and sure taking a used car or living in the same room as he did during the conclave are not really all that drastic, but they're gestures of sympathy for the poor, and a way to live like a vow of poverty would inspire one to live while fulfilling his call to the papacy which demands that he be entrusted with guarding the great treasures of the Vatican for the sake of the whole church.

 

I don't really get what your beef with Era is... I didn't see Era talk in some way that degraded previous popes, like Benedict, like some who praise Pope Francis do, that really irks me... but merely liking the way he said this stuff in that article?  hmm, I think thou dost protest too much.

 

and I guess while Pope Francis is talking talking talking, the Patriarch of Constantinople is flying around fighting crime and saving the earth from impending meteors... how the heck is Pope Francis just "talking"?  You know about the 8 Cardinal Commission to clean up the curia, right?  That's a pretty big action he's in the middle of right now.  How about the Syria prayer vigil?  That was just talk, or a powerful action for peace?  He's been doing a lot of great things, maybe not some of the things you or I would like to see a pope do, but still, a lot of great things nonetheless. 

[Apotheoun]

by that same token all the vows of poverty of monks in well off monasteries, well basically all modern monasteries even in the desert these days, are pointless... all their needs are being met, after all, they don't really have to worry about that from day to day.

Yes, they are not vows of "poverty" in the sense in which I was talking about poverty, and in the sense that I have experienced poverty myself. Members of religious orders are not allowed to own anything personally, but their community can, and so their daily needs are met, and I see nothing wrong with that, but I do take offense when people say that the poverty of religious orders is the same as that experienced by people in the world.

 

Has Pope Francis had to choose between paying for a place to stay and eating? It is a hard decision when you have to decide to go hungry just so you have a roof over your head. Pope Francis, like all religious, has chosen not to own anything personally, and that is a form of poverty, and I commend him for living a simple life, but that is not the kind of devastating poverty that I was talking about. A form of poverty that is not chosen, although it may be lived with faith, and a form of poverty where your daily needs (not wants) are not being met.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Pope Francis is going as close to poverty as he can without degrading the office of the Papacy... please God don't let him sell off the Vatican and live on the streets like he probably wishes he could in the back of his mind.  his talk, I think, is sincere... and sure taking a used car or living in the same room as he did during the conclave are not really all that drastic, but they're gestures of sympathy for the poor, and a way to live like a vow of poverty would inspire one to live while fulfilling his call to the papacy which demands that he be entrusted with guarding the great treasures of the Vatican for the sake of the whole church.

Choosing to be "as close to poverty" as one can is not the same as being poor. Did I say that he, or anyone for that matter, needs to sell the wealth of the Catholic Church? No. I just say that he has not experienced poverty in the fullest sense of that word. Moreover, I am glad that he has sympathy for the poor, but that does not mean that he is poor in the same way. I am sure that Pope Benedict also had sympathy for the poor. He seemed like a very gentle man, and to my knowledge Pope Benedict did not own much of anything either (although I heard he rode a bicycle and perhaps he owned it). I am a bit concerned that people keep trying to make Pope Francis seem like the most humble man to have ever been pope. He seems like a kind fellow, but I have not found his life to be more humble than that of Pope Benedict. Pope Benedict never struck me as self-important. 

Edited September 24, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

I don't really get what your beef with Era is... I didn't see Era talk in some way that degraded previous popes, like Benedict, like some who praise Pope Francis do, that really irks me... but merely liking the way he said this stuff in that article?  hmm, I think thou dost protest too much.

I do not have a "beef" with Era. We just do not agree on theology. Moreover, I do not see the "special charism" he keeps talking about with Pope Francis. Does Pope Francis appear to be a kind man? Yes, but I am making that judgment based upon media reports, because - after all - I do not know him personally. I would say the same thing about Pope Benedict, because I did not know him personally either, but he certainly seemed like a good man. Such judgments in the eternal scheme of things are not really that important, just as claims that a particular ecclesiastic figure has a "special charism" are not that important, nor are they something that can be proven, that is, until the Church acts and declares the person in question to be a saint. But as we all know that only happens after the person has died.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

and I guess while Pope Francis is talking talking talking, the Patriarch of Constantinople is flying around fighting crime and saving the earth from impending meteors... how the heck is Pope Francis just "talking"?  You know about the 8 Cardinal Commission to clean up the curia, right?  That's a pretty big action he's in the middle of right now.  How about the Syria prayer vigil?  That was just talk, or a powerful action for peace?  He's been doing a lot of great things, maybe not some of the things you or I would like to see a pope do, but still, a lot of great things nonetheless. 

Well, my Orthodox friend has not really said much to me about the Patriarch of Constantinople, but what little he has said does not make me think that he is a huge fan. But in Orthodoxy no hierarch is accorded the kind of blind reverence given by some Roman Catholics to the pope, because there is no doctrine of pontifical infallibility in Orthodoxy. Patriarchs and bishops, along with priests and deacons, can be removed if they say things contrary to the faith. I do not think that a Pope can be removed in the same way. I suppose it has something to do with the different ecclesiological approaches of East and West.

 

I will give you the Syria prayer vigil, because although prayer is composed of words, it is a very powerful act. So that is something that Pope Francis has "done" during his pontificate. As far as the Cardinal "commission" that has not even met yet, so we should probably wait and see what actually results from its meetings, rather than speak about it as something already "done". Until it actually does something it is still just "talk".

Edited September 24, 2013 by Apotheoun