Catherine Therese Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 John 16:33. Last I checked, "the West" was a subset of "the world". So it is not a question of "is it possible?" Rather, it is a question of "when?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) People used to be civilised. They didn't tear people apart using straps attached to horses. They didn't raid villages, rape all the women and kill all the males old enough to piss standing up. There were no punishments that involved disembowelment, with the intestines removed, piled on the victim's face, or set afire. I have to wonder just how unbelievably out of touch with history someone has to be to think these times are any different. There have always been uncivilized people in civilizations. That is why there is crime, and all sorts of other ills, but that doesn't mean that Christian civilization was a bad thing. In fact, the Church was the civilizing force in medieval Europe. It used its sanctoral cycle to prevent violence and inhuman behavior. It instilled virtues in its children (e.g., codes of chivalry, etc.). But that doesn't fit well into your view of things, and so you ignore history when it suits your purpose. Edited October 8, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 There have always been uncivilized people in civilizations. That is why there is crime, and all sorts of other ills, but that doesn't mean that Christian civilization was a bad thing. In fact, the Church was the civilizing force in medieval Europe. It used its sanctoral cycle to prevent violence and inhuman behavior. It instilled virtues in its children (e.g., codes of chivalry, etc.). But that doesn't fit well into your view of things, and so you ignore history when it suits your purpose. Were you ever a feudal monarchist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 There have always been uncivilized people in civilizations. That is why there is crime, and all sorts of other ills,This is overly idealistic and simplistic.Civilised people are law abiding and uncivilised people are criminals. Yuck, what a way to think.I think a view of people being complex entities that are in a struggle for survival, striving to procreate, dealing with the complexities of relationships, conflicting interests, oppression, hormones, emotions etc, this view may improve ideas as to why there is crime.Obviously crime is defined as breaking the law, so the rules that define law are also important to understanding why there is crime. If you make it illegal to possess cigarettes then all cigarette smokers will be criminals, make it illegal to possess guns then all gun owners will be criminals.People that are desperate, starving, their families starving, might reasonably resort to theft.Crime is certainly not restricted to "uncivilised" people.If as a society, rather than focussing on civilising the "uncivilised" you instead focus on providng jobs, education, tolerance and a stable society with opportunities so that everyone can strive to a reasonably lengthy and prosperous life, then this will improve people's behaviour because they won't need to take so many risks and in fact they will have too much to lose by taking those risks that for the majority of them would reasonably choose not to take those risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) This is overly idealistic and simplistic. Civilised people are law abiding and uncivilised people are criminals. Yuck, what a way to think. I think a view of people being complex entities that are in a struggle for survival, striving to procreate, dealing with the complexities of relationships, conflicting interests, oppression, hormones, emotions etc, this view may improve ideas as to why there is crime. Obviously crime is defined as breaking the law, so the rules that define law are also important to understanding why there is crime. If you make it illegal to possess cigarettes then all cigarette smokers will be criminals, make it illegal to possess guns then all gun owners will be criminals. People that are desperate, starving, their families starving, might reasonably resort to theft. Crime is certainly not restricted to "uncivilised" people. If as a society, rather than focussing on civilising the "uncivilised" you instead focus on providng jobs, education, tolerance and a stable society with opportunities so that everyone can strive to a reasonably lengthy and prosperous life, then this will improve people's behaviour because they won't need to take so many risks and in fact they will have too much to lose by taking those risks that for the majority of them would reasonably choose not to take those risks. You are funny. Criminals are uncivilized. I am sorry if you do not like that idea, but a murderer is not a civilized person. Edited October 9, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) The West is not mankind Every race, every nation on earth, live and thrive in Americas and in relative harmony. If the west isn't mankind , what is it? Edited October 9, 2013 by add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) You are funny. Criminals are uncivilized. I am sorry if you do not like that idea, but a murderer is not a civilized person. The acts I described were not criminal, but were done by the ruling classes. There were horrendous evils and tortures considered legal. Edited October 9, 2013 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 The acts I described were not criminal, but were done by the ruling classes. There were horrendous evils and tortures considered legal. Murder and theft are acts that have been committed by all classes of people, and that is still the case today, and it is all because of the ancestral sin. You may believe in a utopian idea that people will all just "get along" once government is gone, but I think that that is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 The acts I described were not criminal, but were done by the ruling classes. There were horrendous evils and tortures considered legal. Why do I get the feeling we're about to witness a 3 page semantic argument over the meaning of the word 'criminal' ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Why do I get the feeling we're about to witness a 3 page semantic argument over the meaning of the word 'criminal' ?? Because you have read other threads where Winnie espouses his anarchism. :woot: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Every race, every nation on earth, live and thrive in Americas and in relative harmony. If the west isn't mankind , what is it? The West is only one part of the world. There is also the East, the Middle East, and the Far East, and there is also Africa, and none of those parts of the world (save only the Eastern European region) have been influenced by the foundational sources of Western Civilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Murder and theft are acts that have been committed by all classes of people, and that is still the case today, and it is all because of the ancestral sin. You may believe in a utopian idea that people will all just "get along" once government is gone, but I think that that is nonsense. I don't believe that at all. Where do you come up with this crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I don't believe that at all. I always thought you were an advocate of big government until fairly recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I always thought you were an advocate of big government until fairly recently. I was a state socialist. Then a feudal monarchist (which is a minarchist, if of the medieval variety. Which I was) Now I am an anarchist of the libertarian stripe. It has nothing to do with utopian beliefs that people will get along. It has to do with a rejection of aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I think I still call myself a neofeudal paleolibertarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts