Nihil Obstat Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Still missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 By the way, this is no more a cheap shot than saying that I remember the Cold War and the Berlin Wall while you do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Still missing the point. State your point in one sentence; instead of document dumps that involve looking at usage as it has been effected by 30 years of a political movement aimed at changing how people speak and even think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) Part of the problem is that some people think that the liturgy (and the language used in it) is somehow isolated, that is, existing in an alternate reality of sorts, when in fact the opposite is true. In fact, the language used in the liturgy (and scripture) has formed our own usage of English. Why is there a generic masculine in English? One of the reasons can be found by looking at the book of Genesis and the use of the word / name "Adam." The whole human race, in the biblical world view, and that perspective permeates (or at least it has in the past) our culture, is that all men are in Adam, i.e., man, which is what the name Adam means. Edited October 7, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 you seem to be confused about the demographics of phatmass. mostly young, mostly western, mostly faithful Catholic. do not be that old guy who complains about "the youngins" Don't we already have two people in that role? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 State your point in one sentence; instead of document dumps that involve looking at usage as it has been effected by 30 years of a political movement aimed at changing how people speak and even think. Language, especially the English language, develops in ways that do not always appear logical or 'correct', but natural evolutions of language, such as using "their" or "they" to refer to an unspecified antecedent, while not traditionally considered grammatical, are not necessarily wrong, and to recognize this has precisely nothing to do with the "PC debate" concerning language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Language, especially the English language, develops in ways that do not always appear logical or 'correct', but natural evolutions of language, such as using "their" or "they" to refer to an unspecified antecedent, while not traditionally considered grammatical, are not necessarily wrong, and to recognize this has precisely nothing to do with the "PC debate" concerning language. Blessed are the gender specific word user Nazis, for they shall inherit a small, sound-proofed room in Heaven so they shall not annoy everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) Language, especially the English language, develops in ways that do not always appear logical or 'correct', but natural evolutions of language, such as using "their" or "they" to refer to an unspecified antecedent, while not traditionally considered grammatical, are not necessarily wrong, and to recognize this has precisely nothing to do with the "PC debate" concerning language. Then I haven't misunderstood you at all. You think that the language is developing on its own, in a natural way, as languages always do, but I believe that the English language has been under attack from a political group that wants to alter gender roles (i.e., roles related to sex) and the perception of sex itself (i.e., man's existence as male and female). It is about political correctness, because various "elites" (often in academia) have been pushing this alteration in language, and they have had some success, although it is interesting to see the ongoing use of the generic masculine in TV shows and books. Sure, there are authors who do not use it, but those are usually the very individuals who are pushing for this change. "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but their delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law they meditate day and night." That is just bad English, and it is a distortion and not a translation of the Biblical text. Edited October 7, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 You may notice, in this entire thread I said nothing about use of language in a way that eliminates gender. Not a thing. That is why you are still missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) There is one reason why I think Apteka may be right, and that it may be very hard indeed for the Catholic Church to recover in Western societies, and that is because it used to be that the Church, through her liturgy and her teaching, influenced culture, but since the close of Vatican II the opposite as been the case. This change in perspective can even be seen in one of Pope Francis' interviews, when he said: "Vatican II was a re-reading of the Gospel in light of contemporary culture." That from a Catholic perspective is a wrong headed approach. Contemporary culture is many things, but light is not one of them. The Gospel - on the other hand - is light, and culture needs to be seen in its light, and changed according to the principles set forth by Christ during His ministry. Perhaps the Catholic Church will recover that proper perspective at some point in the future, but it does look like it may be several generations before something like that happens. Edited October 7, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 You may notice, in this entire thread I said nothing about use of language in a way that eliminates gender. Not a thing. That is why you are still missing the point. No. I'm not, but I think you are missing the point, because that is what "gender neutral" language is all about. Eliminating the differences between males and females. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I am far from ignorant about western society. I am sad to say I know all too much about it.Then you probably know better than to make such dramatic generalisations.Youth often comes with a perspective of rebelliousness, of wanting to experience life and of shortsightedness. They often feel that bad things won't happen to them, such as drug addiction and they often are trying to find themselves, whilst also trying to fit in. Most youth are not seeking the next fix. Sure they look forward to parties, to socialising, to drinking, to exploring their sexuality. It's all a natural part of life. But for the most part the youth are going to school, getting an education, starting careers, forming freindships, finding love. There are very few youth who are obsessed with drugs and self destructive enough to let that dominate other aspects of their lives.But I will say that the vast majority of western society[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=sans-serif]—like the vast majority of human society[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=sans-serif]—is selfish.Of course we are selfish as are most animals. We must live life, making decisions that are in our best interests. Our behaviour is shaped by evolution. Those that behave in a way that is in their best interests are those that are more likely to eat, drink, have clothes and shelter and to reproduce. Those that forsake the necessities of life, to act in a way that doesn't progress towards their best interests are instead behaving in a self destructive mannor, they will likely not survive, not procreate, their genes will die off.But, please note: those that seek drugs over food and clothes, they are not operating in their best interests, as selfishness would dictate. Instead they are acting self distructively.Even if they're not like the younger generations looking for the next extreme they are still self-seeking and are still aiming for fulfillment in themselves and their own selfish desires.What is wrong with fulfilling your own desires?If a person desires a family, what is wrong with seeking a husband or wife? What is wrong with seeking to make babies? If a person desires to explore other cultures and places then what is wrong with seeking to travel overseas? If a person wants to be the greatest chef in the world then what is wrong with going to culenary school, working extremely hard and fighting to become the best that you can be?The numerous evils that you listed and their support demonstrate this. The use of contraception in the marital act is an inherently selfish action in which a husband/wife denies their partner the complete and unitive nature of the sexual act,What if both partners mutually agree to want protected sex?it turns sex into nothing more than an obsession with self-gratification by eliminating the procreative purposes for which it is intended.I have sex with my wife, probably about 0.5% of the time that I get to spend awake with her. Would that count as an obsession? In terms of self-gratification there are lots of things we enjoy doing together, sex, massage, watching movies, overseas travel, playing with the kids, skiing, snorkling, going out to restaurants. You see, it seems we desire fun and enjoyment in our life, BTW that's another way of saying self-gratification.A condom is the biggest tool of objectifcation man has ever devised.Condoms prevent pregnancy and STDs.Abortion is the crowning jewel of a society that is self-centred and obsorbed with itself.Most people hope never to go through an abortion.A woman can go down to the clinic and simply have her "problem" removed.For whatever reason a woman chooses to have an abortiong, I am sure for most it is an agonisingly difficult and horrible experience.Western man is now obsessed with his own self-gratification and is ignoring his duties and obligations to God, his Creator. And the end result will be the same. His own running to and fro at the command of his selfish whims will leave him empty and desolate as man cannot find rest and peace outwith God.[/size][/font][/color]People need to take care of their basic needs. A person that spends their time praying and praising gods rather than working to afford food, clothes, shelter, education, medical treatement. Well these people will die as no god will provide for those that don't take care of themselves first. Praise and worship of god is a selfish luxuoury for those that have the time to spend on such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 No. I'm not, but I think you are missing the point, because that is what "gender neutral" language is all about. Eliminating the differences between males and females. You are the only person here talking about gender neutral language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) You are the only person here talking about gender neutral language. No, we both are. Your views on the new uses for "they" and "their" are from the 1980s, and it was one of the means proposed to avoid using the generic masculine. Like I said, I've been dealing with this since before you were born. Edited October 7, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) I admit that I have never really run into more traditionally minded Catholics who are as willing to accept this type of change as you appear to be, but maybe this is just another sign of the ongoing disintegration of the Catholic west. Edited October 7, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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