Why The West Can't Be Converted

[An Historian]

Yes, the person you responded to (Selah) is Eastern Orthodox. 

 

As an Eastern Catholic I find Pope John Paul II's action reprehensible, because it enshrines the false notion that the ecclesiastical territory of the Roman Church is the whole world, while the territories of the Eastern Catholic Churches are limited to basically the Middle East and Ukraine. It is one, but only one, of the reasons why the Eastern Catholic Churches in the United States will probably die off in a generation or two. The Ruthenian Church, for example, had approximately 200,000 members forty years ago, while today there are about 60,000 Ruthenians.

 

The establishment of Christianity in the Americas was by Latin missionaries.  The Latin Church's ecclesiastical terriority is not the whole world but it has been in a more advantageous position than the Eastern Churches,  Them's the breaks, as they say.   I don't believe the Eastern Churches should be given some special privilege by the sole fact that Russia didn't get around to colonising North America before Iberia.

[Aloysius]

meh, I completely disagree, the clause JPII removed should've been left in.  Obviously there should not be missionary activity seeking to convert Latins to Easterners, but why should we restrict the spreading of the Gospel based upon who's territory we're in?  it'd be like if St Paul had called dibs on Rome so St. Peter had to go somewhere else to evangelize.  total nonsense if you ask me.

 

I have had some Protestant friends who were kind of lost and seeking, I took them to english novus ordo mass and they didn't like it at all, took them to a latin mass and they didn't like it so much either, so I took them to an Eastern Catholic Liturgy and they actually were quite enamoured with it, it was clear that the liturgical rite really spoke to them spiritually.  I lost touch with them so I don't know if they ever officially converted or anything, but I would've been quite happy for them to enter through the Eastern Catholic Church.  

 

it should only be difficult for a Roman Catholic to become Eastern Catholic, but the only reason that should be difficult is to ensure they're not going in to try to latinize the Eastern Rite, they should be allowed only if their theological and liturgical views have truly shifted... but I would welcome Eastern Catholics evangelizing non-Christians and Protestants in North America and Europe, there should be no rivalry here!

[Apotheoun]

The establishment of Christianity in the Americas was by Latin missionaries.  The Latin Church's ecclesiastical terriority is not the whole world but it has been in a more advantageous position than the Eastern Churches,  Them's the breaks, as they say.   I don't believe the Eastern Churches should be given some special privilege by the sole fact that Russia didn't get around to colonising North America before Iberia.

In some parts of the Americas, but the Orthodox also established missions in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest and Northern California. 

 

Now it is also important to note that the Roman Church through its actions against Eastern Catholics in the late 19th century actually helped to increase the size of the Orthodox Church in North America, because the Latin attempts to suppress or latinize Eastern Catholic parishes in the United States and Canada, which were founded because of immigration from Eastern Europe, brought about the conversion of more than half of all the Eastern Catholics to Orthodoxy, and the Russian Orthodox missions in North America grew and became established even in the Eastern United States, an area they had not even approached for missionary activity up to that time. The Latin bishops in the United States did all that they could to suppress Eastern Catholicism, but to no avail. The activities of one Roman Catholic bishop in particular helped to inspire an Eastern Catholic priest named Alexis Toth to convert to Orthodoxy and bring thousands of Eastern Catholics with him, and he has since been glorified as a saint in the Orthodox Church. Things were pretty bad back in the late 19th and early 20th century for Eastern Catholics, bad enough that Cardinal Keeler apologized for the actions of the Roman Church in the United States in a speech delivered in the late 1990s.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

"When the first priests and people came from the Carpathian Mountain region of Central Europe, with their different liturgical language and way of worship, their canonical practices at variance with the Latin Church, many of the Latin Rite, clergy and laity both, were confused and also fearful. Among other things, they were afraid that the new ways - really very old ways sanctioned by Sts. Cyril and Methodius and the Apostolic See - would give the anti-Catholics more ammunition for the discrimination already practiced with such bitterness and abandon. The un-Christian reaction of the Latin leaders and people of a century ago must be on our minds today as, in the spirit of the Great Jubilee, Latin Catholics ask for pardon as we recall the suffering, pain and loss experienced by our brothers and sisters from Eastern Catholic Churches during those years."

 

William Cardinal Keeler, Archbishop of Baltimore

[Apotheoun]

About half of all Orthodox living in the United States today are descendants of Eastern Catholics.

[An Historian]

meh, I completely disagree, the clause JPII removed should've been left in.  Obviously there should not be missionary activity seeking to convert Latins to Easterners, but why should we restrict the spreading of the Gospel based upon who's territory we're in?  it'd be like if St Paul had called dibs on Rome so St. Peter had to go somewhere else to evangelize.  total nonsense if you ask me.

 

I have had some Protestant friends who were kind of lost and seeking, I took them to english novus ordo mass and they didn't like it at all, took them to a latin mass and they didn't like it so much either, so I took them to an Eastern Catholic Liturgy and they actually were quite enamoured with it, it was clear that the liturgical rite really spoke to them spiritually.  I lost touch with them so I don't know if they ever officially converted or anything, but I would've been quite happy for them to enter through the Eastern Catholic Church.  

 

it should only be difficult for a Roman Catholic to become Eastern Catholic, but the only reason that should be difficult is to ensure they're not going in to try to latinize the Eastern Rite, they should be allowed only if their theological and liturgical views have truly shifted... but I would welcome Eastern Catholics evangelizing non-Christians and Protestants in North America and Europe, there should be no rivalry here!

 

And I hope it works both ways.  You also believe it should be hard for Eastern Catholics to become Roman Catholics to avoid the Easternisation of Latin spirituality, theology and liturgy?  When will the Eastern Churches include the Roman Canon as an option in their Divine Liturgies?  But we Latins must be content with the side-lining of our own ancient Canon of the Mass for an Easternised Eucharistic Prayer?

 

And you cannot disregard ecclesiastical jurisdiction.  Eastern Christians are very big on this are they not?  I find it laughable that an Orthodox Christian or an Eastern Catholic would complain at lengths about the curtailing of their missionary efforts in Latin territories whilst in the same breath roundly condening any Papal "interference" in their own jurisdictions.

[An Historian]

In some parts of the Americas, but the Orthodox also established missions in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest and Northern California. 

 

Now it is also important to note that the Roman Church through its actions against Eastern Catholics in the late 19th century actually helped to increase the size of the Orthodox Church in North America, because the Latin attempts to suppress or latinize Eastern Catholic parishes in the United States and Canada, which were founded because of immigration from Eastern Europe, brought about the conversion of more than half of all the Eastern Catholics to Orthodoxy, and the Russian Orthodox missions in North America grew and became established even in the Eastern United States, an area they had not even approached for missionary activity up to that time. The Latin bishops in the United States did all that they could to suppress Eastern Catholicism, but to no avail. The activities of one Roman Catholic bishop in particular helped to inspire an Eastern Catholic priest named Alexis Toth to convert to Orthodoxy and bring thousands of Eastern Catholics with him, and he has since been glorified as a saint in the Orthodox Church. Things were pretty bad back in the late 19th and early 20th century for Eastern Catholics, bad enough that Cardinal Keeler apologized for the actions of the Roman Church in the United States in a speech delivered in the late 1990s.

 

Have you got any information on the Eastern missions to the United States?  I would like to know more before commenting.

 

Regarding the abuses and injustices Eastern Catholics suffered at the hands of Latin Catholics and including the hierarchy - I roundly condemn it.  That doesn't give Eastern Catholics a free pass to abuse Latin theology, spirituality and liturgy, nor to poach on what is rightly Latin territories.

[Apotheoun]

And I hope it works both ways.  You also believe it should be hard for Eastern Catholics to become Roman Catholics to avoid the Easternisation of Latin spirituality, theology and liturgy?  When will the Eastern Churches include the Roman Canon as an option in their Divine Liturgies?  But we Latins must be content with the side-lining of our own ancient Canon of the Mass for an Easternised Eucharistic Prayer?

 

And you cannot disregard ecclesiastical jurisdiction.  Eastern Christians are very big on this are they not?  I find it laughable that an Orthodox Christian or an Eastern Catholic would complain at lengths about the curtailing of their missionary efforts in Latin territories whilst in the same breath roundly condening any Papal "interference" in their own jurisdictions.

I think that the Latin Church should be Latin, but sadly the Latin Church does not seem to agree. I do not want to see "Easternization" of the Roman Church, but its seems that the hierarchy of the Latin Church wants to do that. Although it really never does it in fact; instead, it does a pseudo-Easternization of its rites and practices. For example, when I heard Pope Francis talking about the Roman Church possibly adopting the Orthodox practice in connection with divorced and remarried people, I realized that he probably knows nothing about the actual practice. Should the Western Church add Eastern things into its liturgy and practice of the faith? No. What is the point of having 23 different Catholic Churches in the Catholic communion if they are all going to be homogenized into some bland unified whole that has no historical past.

[Aloysius]

I have no problem with any Easterinization of the Roman Church that's found beneficial by our bishops, but sure for individuals coming over to the Roman Church they should have to demonstrate that they are doing so because they are throroughly Roman in their theological and liturgical views.... the Eastern Churches care very much about keeping the particularities of their traditions, so we should respect that, but the Roman Church of recent years has been quite open to learning from the Eastern Churches and using them as examples, and I don't have a problem with that.  though I do prefer the Roman Canon, it's ridiculous to suggest it should be exported to the East... whether our bishops should or should not have brought in other Eucharistic Prayers is a completely separate question... but again, Easternization should not really be considered a problem by Roman Catholics, at least that which the Hierarchs of our Church find beneficial.  

 

as far as jurisdiction goes, it's not an apostolic tradition, and it doesn't make any sense in modern times with planes, trains, and automobiles, to keep to such rigid territorial concepts.  we should welcome the spreading of the Gospel anywhere and everywhere.  there should be no competition amongst the Apostles.  to call it "poaching" for an Eastern Catholic to convert a Protestant or non-Christian into the Catholic Church through their own liturgical and theological tradition, just because it's on the wrong piece of land, is ridiculous!  it would be poaching if they were trying to convert Roman Catholics, sure, but those outside the Catholic Church should be offered as many lifelines as possible... the idea that we need some kind of territorial exclusivity on our own theological and liturgical perspectives is crazy to me... it reminds me of when the Apostles were bickering amongst themselves over who would be the greatest...

[Apotheoun]

Have you got any information on the Eastern missions to the United States?  I would like to know more before commenting.

 

Regarding the abuses and injustices Eastern Catholics suffered at the hands of Latin Catholics and including the hierarchy - I roundly condemn it.  That doesn't give Eastern Catholics a free pass to abuse Latin theology, spirituality and liturgy, nor to poach on what is rightly Latin territories.

Eastern Catholic missions began with the influx of Eastern European immigrants. Eastern Orthodox missions in the Americas began with the Russian advance into North America in the early 1700s.

[Apotheoun]

I have no problem with any Easterinization of the Roman Church that's found beneficial by our bishops . . .

Al, on this issue we do not agree. I think the Roman Church should protect its own traditions. I think the whole nature of Tradition in the Roman Church is in danger of being lost. It is weird, because the Roman Church used to see its rites as exemplary, that is, as the apex of Christian practice, and now it does not seem to care at all about what makes being Roman Catholic unique. It is sad.

[Aloysius]

I think the Roman Church's emphasis on universality is not a bad thing... I doubt there is any way back to the mono-liturgical world prior to Vatican II, the way forward seems to be a good traditional liturgical plurality... if it were to draw upon authentic aspects of Eastern Traditions, I have no problem with that... just please God let it stop with the guitar kumbaya nonsense, let it cling to Apostolic roots, I don't quite care if they're exclusively Roman Apostolic roots, the Roman Church has far outgrown the Roman Empire... I think the Eastern Churches being concerned about preserving their traditions against latinization is a totally valid thing, but I do think that in the Roman Church it should be possible to preserve and restore its heritage while at the same time learning from Eastern Traditions and enriching itself through that.

[Apotheoun]

But the Roman Church is not universal. How can it be? It would have to celebrate every rite and do every thing that all the other Churches do. Being a disjointed hodgepodge of things is not the same as being universal.

[Apotheoun]

Can the Roman Church practice indulgences and not practice indulgences at the same time? The Eastern Churches have no theology of indulgences, so is Rome going to do away with indulgences, while simultaneously continuing the practice? Seems schizophrenic to me.

[Aloysius]

all the Churches are universal... one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church... but they express it in different ways.  I just don't think the Roman Church needs to be trying to particularize its traditions the way the Eastern Churches are so keen on doing.

 

of course it shouldn't both do indulgences and not do indulgences, that's ridiculous and its that kind of over-the-top absurd drawing of lines that sometimes makes debating with you quite frustrating, Apo.  it should maintain its theological framework, of course, but draw upon the wisdom of the East also as much as that can speak to its members... indulgences are barely practiced anymore by so many, of course, but there's nothing wrong with them... but there's also nothing wrong with Romans learning from Eastern Theology and trying to enrich their understanding of the practices of indulgences through that... not becoming fully Easterners, but also not trying to guard against "Easternizing" influences IMO.