How Much Austerity Can One Handle?

[AccountDeleted]

Well, I do agree with what Mithluin has posted about entering and trying, but one needs to be aware of the downside of this as well.

 

Once a woman has left a community or been asked to leave, if she applies somewhere else, she is probably going to be asked if she has ever lived in a religious community before (either by the superior or on the application form). And then start the questions about why - why did she leave or why was she asked to leave. If this has been done more than once, the candidate starts to look suspect to a community, and this can influence their decision to accept you. That's why I think that live-ins are a better option, if they are available. Telling a community that you have visited or done a live-in visit with another community doesn't sound as bad as having entered a left a community, especially if you have done it more than once.

 

Perhaps it shouldn't be this way because postulancy is supposed to be a time of discernment, but it is human nature I guess to worry about things like this -- just like applying for a job sometimes. If you have a spotty employment history, the prospective employer is going to want to know why. I speak from experience. These days, if I am interested in a community, there are two things I have to deal with - one is my age and the other is my past history of having been in communities and either left or been asked to leave. I have to decide how much to reveal while being tactful and charitable because if I complain about a past community, it appears that I am not accepting personal responsibility but if I don't explain why or how we weren't a fit, it can look as if I am simply flitting from place to place and am hard to please.

 

That isn't to say that this situation is impossible- nothing is impossible for God, but it does limit options, just as one's age does. Despite my age and my experiences, I have still been able to discuss a possible vocation with some communities. And if I can do this, than no one need despair. But I do think that simply entering and then leaving if it doesn't feel right will cause more problems in the long run, than a considered discernment period and a live-in visit first. Just 2 cents worth here.

Edited September 17, 2013 by nunsense

[Gabriela]

curiosing - Idon't mean to freak you out but the 'discipline' is a small whip made up of knotted stands of rope. It is used as a penance on certain nights. Different communities do it at different times and in different ways but the one I was in used it 3 times a week after Readings I think it was. We whipped ourselves on bare skin together in the choir with the lights turned off and all the shutters closed so there was total darkness and no one could see anyone else. One sister intoned the Miserere while we did it and when she was finished, so were we. We had time to rearrange our clothes again before the lights came on. It was a very strange experience for me because of how we had to do it, and it wasn't what I expected from watching the Teresa of Avila movie where she whipped herself alone in her cell on her bare shoulders.  

 

It is meant to be symbolic of sharing with Christ's passion and sisters are not to draw blood at all. But my NM had to warn me that if I felt any sexual arousal at all, I was to stop immediately. I found this an incredibly disturbing comment because it meant that obviously some sisters in the past had felt this way. I think that in this day and age, the discipline might not be a healthy penance but this is my opinion only and I don't condemn those who still find some spiritual value in it. It might depend on how and where it is done. I certainly didn't like the way it was done in that community. So if someone is planning on entering a really strict community where a lot of pre Vat 2 penances are done, then they should at least find out what these are and if they are ok with them. I would probably have still entered because this wasn't a deal breaker, but it is an indication of the attitudes of the community, which may have been part of my downfall.

 

Note - I am not condemning these practices, just advising that they can be controversial and cause concern, especially to parents and family.

 

Huh. I appreciate the detailed explanation. Yeah, I think there are some things I would definitely prefer to do in private!

[maximillion]

We took the discipline for about five years following my entry, well, that means that I only used it for a couple of years since those not in Vows were not permitted.

Then the practice was dropped.

 

However, this was done in ones cell, with the door slightly ajar, over the bare shoulder, at the same time as all the other novices. One of us knelt alone outside her cell door and said the Miserere - loudly, and we all used it in unison. Like nunsense, when she finished we all finished. Then there was a pause before Sister gave the night blessing and we all retired. This was done on Friday nights after Compline.

 

I was never given such bald faced instruction over the possible erotic aspects but NM told me that it was to be done with an attitude of profound humility. I was cross questioned about my thoughts and feelings over several months after my first vows in relation to this practice, clearly in order to check out I had the right attitude.

 

The thought of doing this in unison, undressed and in the dark....I think I would have cavailed at that.

 

Other things we did....just for info, Stations on our knees, Cross prayers of course, kissing the floor, asking for the prayers of the community in refectory naming a virtue or habit one wanted to acquire/correct.....

NONE of these was permitted without permission in advance, and the only novice I saw sent away was one who insisted on doing little penances and asking permission afterwards.

I have to admit to being told I had a rather blasé response to the penances. They were part of the life and God had called me to that life so I simply got on with them. It was never a big deal. I found it much more difficult to mount the refectory lectern and take my turn as reader!

Edited September 17, 2013 by maximillion

[Egeria]

I agree that one gets used to most of the external austerities and that the far more difficult challenges are the inner ones. However, and this probably only applies to a few of the monastic Orders who get up really early, the early rising is something that one never really gets used to, at least in my experience although I know others with similar struggles. Night people do not become morning people and monastic life is definitely easier for morning people. This is not to say that one should not still pursue it - far from it - but some of us will probably continue to struggle with this for the rest of our lives.

[Julie de Sales]

Thank you all for the replies! It is certainly not my intention to condemn any penances that might be the rule in a convent, just wondering if someone from the outside can know before entering if they will be able to get used to it. Personally, I don't experience in my ordinary life the fatigue, the hunger or the interior struggles that inevitably arrive in religious life. I guess you have to enter in order to know what it is like, because we are all different. 

I certainly pray for my friend-she must be a novice by now, and I believe she truly found her home :)

Regarding penances, I remember that one convent I visited was eating unheated food. Not all plates, but some of them. I found it difficult to be honest, even if it may seem a small thing. Some food was to hot to eat and other was so cold....As for the discipline, nowadays it sounds like such a strange practice, but it was very common in monasteries in the past. 

In the end, I think that if we are called to enter somewhere, we will recieve the grace to handle the sacrifices that come with it. 

[Aya Sophia]

Further to this interesting discussion:

 

1.  In addition to being part of penance and sacrifice, offered to God for others out of love, austerity can be a powerful tool we place in the hands of the Holy Spirit to do His wonderful work in us.

 

2.  Austerity may have a particular role or particular appropriateness during certain periods of one's life.  There may be a time (or times) when a high measure of it is necessary and eeven critical to one's progress.  It may function as a kind of spiritual rite of passage , an "outward bound" program for the soul.  To avoid or to flee austerity in such cases is to flee the fire of the Holy Spirit.

 

3.  If a person is unable to live an austere life this is clear confirmation that it is not God's will for her.  If, on the other hand, she is able to live it, this does not necessarily mean she is called to it.  The Lord may have particular reasons (vis. 2. above, for ex.) for place a person in the context of such a life for a time but His will may be to draw her on.

 

4.  If a person is able to live an austere life and is inclined toward austerity (assuming the inclination has been purified and is healthy and true) then it is an austerity to be deprived of austerity.  It is a "penance" to have rather than to have not.  To such a one, the knotted cords of the flagellum are preferred to the wet noodle of ice cream taken at recreation out of obedience!

 

Aside #1:  If you choose to launch into the unknown for God's sake, into a life filled with austerity which you expect to be acutely difficult (and filled with grace), a life you feel compelled to enter upon, plan to stay in it a year.  A length of time is needed just for the natural operations of your soul to adjust, while the Spirit is working supernaturally in you.  If necessary, make a contract with the Lord (put it in writing) just before you enter, promsing to stay, no matter what, a minimum of a year.  Having made this contract, you have taken "leaving" off the table as an option and you will no longer even consider it.  In making such a promise and keeping it, you give the Lord immense power to work changes in you.  Part of the fruit of such a kept promise is that He will make His will known to with regard to "next steps", whether to profess vows or not.

 

Aside #2:  Be not afraid!  Or, be afraid, but act!  Don't hang back in fear.  Have trust and confidence in God and His love for you.  No matter what happens, you will live to tell the tale.  You will suffer and this suffering will draw you further on and deeper in to the heart's core, into "secret chamber of love", into God.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2013 by Aya Sophia

[FFI Griswold]

We often hear that one community is more austere than another in the way they dress, they eat, they sleep, etc. But is this an important factor in discernment? I mean, they are people like us with human needs and I don’t think someone would push too hard for fear of getting sick. I heard that after Vatican II there is more “comfort” in monasteries than before.

Can some of you, maybe those who have tried religious life before, share their experiences regarding penance/austerity inside a convent? An “officially” austere community would be comprehensive if a candidate couldn’t handle too much?

I know someone with a fragile health who entered a very strict community and she was a little afraid that it would be too difficult for her. I trust of course the discernment that she made, but we can’t really know if we can live the life before we actually try it, don’t we?

 

Ave Maria!

 

Happy feast of the Stigmata of Our Hoy Father St. Francis! A fitting day for the topic of austerity and penance, especially for the Order of Penance! Yes, the attitude towards austerity can be a factor in discernment as it can be a sign of the fidelity of a community. If you are drawn to a particular community, don't worry about if it will be too hard for you. Like others have said, just try, and let God do the rest. For some a community may be easy, challenging, difficult, or extremely difficult, but in any case it doesn't mean they don't have a vocation there. The spiritual director and superiors will guide you and let you know if you don't, so all you have to do is try your best, surrender, trust, and obey. (This is where the supernatural comes in, as even if everything seems one way to you, you must not trust yourself and just obey. This is a test, and it's usually not until after that you see it all more clearly and thank God you obeyed.)

 

I was one that was on the difficult/extremely difficult side and doubted if I would last the first year. Compared to the others, I thought I was struggling the most. Rising early and tiredness was my biggest fear, even before entering. Friends called me "the tired one". For me it took about 2 years or so to begin to get used to it. It's a miracle. Is it still difficult? Yes. Some days more than others. Some friars continue to struggle even after many years, some far more than I do (there are funny stories about falling asleep), but it's a cross. It's redemptive suffering and very meritorious if borne with love. We remember the reasons why we entered and know this is where we're supposed to be, especially if you've made solemn vows.

 

As far as all the other penances, it's not a big deal. For the most part, you can get used to it and get into a routine, but if not, more merit for your struggle. The test is to see if you continue to use it for the love of God. They are an aid to multiplying the effectiveness of your prayer, and if you don't do them with devotion, you still get some merit, but not nearly as much. Just like any other devotion, or even the Holy Mass, you receive as much as you give (He actually gives exponentially more than the little we give), but that doesn't mean any of them should be done away with if people don't use them with love. Remember also the example of Our Lord Himself on the Cross, that the proof of love is sacrifice.

 

As Our Lord told Saint Faustina; "If the angels were capable of envy, they would envy us for two things: one is the receiving of Holy Communion, and the other is suffering." (p.1805)

In fact, the saints teach us that suffering is of such great merit, that it is greater than external works such as preaching, writing, or even working miracles; "You will save more souls through prayer and suffering than will a missionary through his teachings and sermons alone." (Jesus to Saint Faustina).

 

There are so many quotes from Scripture, the example of the life of Our Lord Himself, Our Lady, all the Saints, and Church teaching about redemptive suffering, penance, mortification, and sacrifice. Redemptive suffering is so valuable and a key to being Christian, to be truly happy, in this life and in the next.

 

Here are some very good reads for discerning a religous vocation:

 

Penance and Mortification

http://www.religious-vocation.com/penance_and_mortification.html

 

 

"To Love and To Suffer" - The Science of the Saints

http://www.religious-vocation.com/redemptive_suffering.html

 

 

Ave Maria!

 

In the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary,

 

Friar John Paul

[MarysLittleFlower]

It seems to me like the focus should be love for God. This could eventually eliminate both a fear of difficulties or lack of comfort, and would also help to balance it out so there's less or no pride etc. Love and humility :) I assume that the penances or other austerities done in religious life are done with spiritual direction and are oriented to cause a certain level of discomfort (for detachment, sharing in Christ's Passion, etc) but not ruining the body and health. I think that just as there's the possibility of ruining one's health entirely, there's also the possibility of being so afraid of any penance of suffering because in our culture we're so used to comfort. I'd say I'm used to comfort too and it might be difficult for me to adjust to something like this. But I think if we focus on growing in love for God, that could help to find the right way in this :)

 

There's something that Our Lord told St Catherine of Siena that I found very helpful...

 

 

A TREATISE OF DISCRETION

 

1.How the affection should not place reliance chiefly on penance, but rather on virtues; and how discretion receives life from humility, and renders to each man his due.

 

"These are the holy and sweet works which I seek from My servants; these are the proved intrinsic virtues of the soul, as I have told you.

"They not only consist of those virtues which are done by means of the body, that is, with an exterior act, or with diverse and varied penances, which are the instruments of virtue; works of penance performed alone without the above-mentioned virtues would please Me little; often, indeed, if the soul perform not her penance with discretion, that is to say, if her affection be placed principally in the penance she has undertaken, her perfection will be impeded; she should rather place reliance on the affection of love, with a holy hatred of herself, accompanied by true humility and perfect patience, together with the other intrinsic virtues of the soul, with hunger and desire for My honor and the salvation of souls.

"For these virtues demonstrate that the will is dead, and continually slays its own sensuality through the affection of love of virtue. With this discretion, then, should the soul perform her penance, that is, she should place her principal affection in virtue rather than in penance.

" Penance should be but the means to increase virtue according to the needs of the individual, and according to what the soul sees she can do in the measure of her own possibility. Otherwise, if the soul place her foundation on penance she will contaminate her own perfection, because her penance will not be done in the light of knowledge of herself and of My goodness, with discretion, and she will not seize hold of My truth; neither loving that which I love, nor hating that which I hate.

"This virtue of discretion is no other than a true knowledge which the soul should have of herself and of Me, and in this knowledge is virtue rooted. Discretion is the only child of self-knowledge, and, wedding with charity, has indeed many other descendants, as a tree which has many branches; but that which gives life to the tree, to its branches, and its root, is the ground of humility, in which it is planted, which humility is the foster-mother and nurse of charity, by whose means this tree remains in the perpetual calm of discretion. Because otherwise the tree would not produce the virtue of discretion, or any fruit of life, if it were not planted in the virtue of humility, because humility proceeds from self-knowledge.

"And I have already said to you, that the root of discretion is a real knowledge of self and of My goodness, by which the soul immediately, and discreetly, renders to each one his due. Chiefly to Me in rendering praise and glory to My Name, and in referring to Me the graces and the gifts which she sees and knows she has received from Me; and rendering to herself that which she sees herself to have merited, knowing that she does not even exist of herself, and attributing to Me, and not to herself, her being, which she knows she has received by grace from Me, and every other grace which she has received besides.

"And she seems to herself to be ungrateful for so many benefits, and negligent, in that she has not made the most of her time, and the graces she has received, and so seems to herself worthy of suffering; wherefore she becomes odious and displeasing to herself through her guilt. And this founds the virtue of discretion on knowledge of self, that is, on true humility, for, were this humility not in the soul, the soul would be indiscreet, indiscretion being founded on pride, as discretion is on humility.

"An indiscreet soul robs Me of the honor due to Me, and attributes it to herself, through vainglory, and that which is really her own she imputes to Me, grieving and murmuring concerning My mysteries, with which I work in her soul and in those of My other creatures; wherefore everything in Me and in her neighbor is cause of scandal to her. Contrariwise those who possess the virtue of discretion.

"For, when they have rendered what is due to Me and to themselves, they proceed to render to their neighbor their principal debt of love, and of humble and continuous prayer, which all should pay to each other, and further, the debt of doctrine, and example of a holy and honorable life, counseling and helping others according to their needs for salvation, as I said to you above. Whatever rank a man be in, whether that of a noble, a prelate, or a servant, if he have this virtue, everything that he does to his neighbor is done discreetly and lovingly, because these virtues are bound and mingled together, and both planted in the ground of humility which proceeds from self-knowledge."

 

 

Source: http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/dialogue/diag12.php 
 

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

From the same book: (I believe it's in the public domain)

 

 

A TREATISE OF DISCRETION

 

3. How penance and other corporal exercises are to be taken as instruments for arriving at virtue, and not as the principal affection of the soul; and of the light of discretion in various other modes and operations.

 

"These are the fruits and the works which I seek from the soul, the proving, namely, of virtue in the time of need.

"And yet some time ago, if you remember, when you were desirous of doing great penance for My sake, asking, 'What can I do to endure suffering for You, oh Lord?' I replied to you, speaking in your mind, 'I take delight in few words and many works.'

"I wished to show you that he who merely calls on me with the sound of words, saying: 'Lord, Lord, I would do something for You,' and he, who desires for My sake to mortify his body with many penances, and not his own will, did not give Me much pleasure; but that I desired the manifold works of manly endurance with patience, together with the other virtues, which I have mentioned to you above, intrinsic to the soul, all of which must be in activity in order to obtain fruits worthy of grace.

"All other works, founded on any other principle than this, I judge to be a mere calling with words, because they are finite works, and I, who am Infinite, seek infinite works, that is an infinite perfection of love.

"I wish therefore that the works of penance, and of other corporal exercises, should be observed merely as means, and not as the fundamental affection of the soul. For, if the principal affection of the soul were placed in penance, I should receive a finite thing like a word, which, when it has issued from the mouth, is no more, unless it have issued with affection of the soul, which conceives and brings forth virtue in truth; that is, unless the finite operation, which I have called a word, should be joined with the affection or love, in which case it would be grateful and pleasant to Me.

"And this is because such a work would not be alone, but accompanied by true discretion, using corporal works as means, and not as the principal foundation; for it would not be becoming that that principal foundation should be placed in penance only, or in any exterior corporal act, such works being finite, since they are done in finite time, and also because it is often profitable that the creature omit them, and even that she be made to do so.

"Wherefore, when the soul omits them through necessity, being unable through various circumstances to complete an action which she has begun, or, as may frequently happen, through obedience at the order of her director, it is well; since, if she continued then to do them, she not only would receive no merit, but would offend Me; thus you see that they are merely finite. She ought, therefore, to adopt them as a means, and not as an end. For, if she takes them as an end she will be obliged, some time or other, to leave them, and will then remain empty.

"This, My trumpeter, the glorious Paul, taught you when he said in his epistle, that you should mortify the body and destroy self-will, knowing, that is to say, how to keep the rein on the body, macerating the flesh whenever it should wish to combat the spirit, but the will should be dead and annihilated in everything, and subject to My will, and this slaying of the will is that due which, as I told you, the virtue of discretion renders to the soul, that is to say, hatred and disgust of her own offenses and sensuality, which are acquired by self-knowledge. This is the knife which slays and cuts off all self-love founded in self-will.

"These then are they who give Me not only words but manifold works, and in these I take delight. And then I said that I desired few words, and many actions; by the use of the word 'many' I assign no particular number to you, because the affection of the soul, founded in love, which gives life to all the virtues and good works, should increase infinitely, and yet I do not, by this, exclude words, I merely said that I wished few of them, showing you that every actual operation, as such, was finite, and therefore I called them of little account; but they please Me when they are performed as the instruments of virtue, and not as a principal end in themselves.

"However, no one should judge that he has greater perfection, because he performs great penances, and gives himself in excess to the slaying of his body, than he who does less, inasmuch as neither virtue nor merit consists therein; for otherwise he would be in an evil case, who, from some legitimate reason, was unable to do actual penance.

"Merit consists in the virtue of love alone, flavored with the light of true discretion, without which the soul is worth nothing. And this love should be directed to Me endlessly, boundlessly, since I am the Supreme and Eternal Truth. The soul can therefore place neither laws nor limits to her love for Me; but her love for her neighbor, on the contrary, is ordered in certain conditions.

"The light of discretion (which proceeds from love, as I have told you) gives to the neighbor a conditioned love, one that, being ordered aright, does not cause the injury of sin to self in order to be useful to others, for, if one single sin were committed to save the whole world from Hell, or to obtain one great virtue, the motive would not be a rightly ordered or discreet love, but rather indiscreet, for it is not lawful to perform even one act of great virtue and profit to others, by means of the guilt of sin.

"Holy discretion ordains that the soul should direct all her powers to My service with a manly zeal, and, that she should love her neighbor with such devotion that she would lay down a thousand times, if it were possible, the life of her body for the salvation of souls, enduring pains and torments so that her neighbor may have the life of grace, and giving her temporal substance for the profit and relief of his body.

"This is the supreme office of discretion which proceeds from charity. So you see how discreetly every soul, who wishes for grace, should pay her debts, that is, should love Me with an infinite love and without measure, but her neighbor with measure, with a restricted love, as I have said, not doing herself the injury of sin in order to be useful to others.

"This is St. Paul's counsel to you when he says that charity ought to be concerned first with self, otherwise it will never be of perfect utility to others. Because, when perfection is not in the soul, everything which the soul does for itself and for others is imperfect. It would not, therefore, be just that creatures, who are finite and created by Me, should be saved through offense done to Me, who am the Infinite Good. The more serious the fault is in such a case, the less fruit will the action produce; therefore, in no way should you ever incur the guilt of sin.

"And this true love knows well, because she carries with herself the light of holy discretion, that light which dissipates all darkness, takes away ignorance, and is the condiment of every instrument of virtue. Holy discretion is a prudence which cannot be cheated, a fortitude which cannot be beaten, a perseverance from end to end, stretching from Heaven to earth, that is, from knowledge of Me to knowledge of self, and from love of Me to love of others. And the soul escapes dangers by her true humility, and, by her prudence, flies all the nets of the world and its creatures, and, with unarmed hands, that is through much endurance, discomfits the devil and the flesh with this sweet and glorious light; knowing, by it, her own fragility, she renders to her weakness its due of hatred.

"Wherefore she has trampled on the world, and placed it under the feet of her affection, despising it, and holding it vile, and thus becoming lord of it, holding it as folly. And the men of the world cannot take her virtues from such a soul, but all their persecutions increase her virtues and prove them, which virtues have been at first conceived by the virtue of love, as has been said, and then are proved on her neighbor, and bring forth their fruit on him.

"Thus have I shown you, that, if virtue were not visible and did not shine in the time of trial, it would not have been truly conceived; for, I have already told you, that perfect virtue cannot exist and give fruit except by means of the neighbor, even as a woman, who has conceived a child, if she do not bring it forth, so that it may appear before the eyes of men, deprives her husband of his fame of paternity.

"It is the same with Me, who am the Spouse of the soul, if she do not produce the child of virtue, in the love of her neighbor, showing her child to him who is in need, both in general and in particular, as I have said to you before, so I declare now that, in truth, she has not conceived virtue at all; and this is also true of the vices, all of which are committed by means of the neighbor."

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

A TREATISE OF DIVINE PROVIDENCE

 

5. How very pleasing to God is the willing desire to suffer for Him.

 

"Very pleasing to Me, dearest daughter, is the willing desire to bear every pain and fatigue, even unto death, for the salvation of souls, for the more the soul endures, the more she shows that she loves Me; loving Me she comes to know more of My truth, and the more she knows, the more pain and intolerable grief she feels at the offenses committed against Me.

"You asked Me to sustain you, and to punish the faults of others in you, and you did not remark that you were really asking for love, light, and knowledge of the truth, since I have already told you that, by the increase of love, grows grief and pain, wherefore he that grows in love grows in grief.

"Therefore, I say to you all, that you should ask, and it will be given you, for I deny nothing to him who asks of Me in truth. Consider that the love of divine charity is so closely joined in the soul with perfect patience, that neither can leave the soul without the other. For this reason (if the soul elect to love Me) she should elect to endure pains for Me in whatever mode or circumstance I may send them to her. Patience cannot be proved in any other way than by suffering, and patience is united with love as has been said.

"Therefore bear yourselves with manly courage, for, unless you do so, you will not prove yourselves to be spouses of My Truth, and faithful children, nor of the company of those who relish the taste of My honor, and the salvation of souls."
 

[Pia Jesu]

I remember watching a video from some Visitation sisters and the Mother Superior of their community said that she wouldn't have been able to handle some other forms of religious life - "I never could have done the more penitential orders" 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRSN9KyPWsg (that's the video)

 

I agree with nunsense that one shouldn't seek austerity for the sake of it. There are practices in religious life that may seem austere compared to the comforts many of us are used to. I also think it's okay to admit that there are things you wouldn't be able to deal with. Not everyone is cut out for every kind of life. One must still though keep their motives in check - it is just as easy to seek comfort for the wrong reasons as it is to seek austerity for the wrong reasons. 

 

Yes, indeed!  St. Francis de Sales (in Finding God's Will For You) writes that "although we have

learned virtuous practices and devout exercises, we must have no affection for them, nor reclothe

our hearts with them except only insofar as we know that such is God's good pleasure."

 

A priest-friend of mine (a former Trappist monk in Ireland) had an abbot who told him to

"throw away the hairshirt...and learn to see God in your neighbor."  It's easy to become

obsessed with practicing certain "austerities" and lose sight of the big picture of why we

chose to embrace a religious vocation--or, for that matter, any state of life.  Austerities

are simply a means which always must relate to an end--which is God!  Great discussion

here.
 

[Totally Franciscan]

Your post is spot on, Pia!  When I was in Carmel, all the nuns were having a discussion about some penance (I believe it was the Black Fast, where no dairy was taken such as milk/cream in the coffee), its pros and cons.  I remember distinctly one nun almost in tears telling Mother, "We have enough penance at our fingertips in community."  And so there is!

[Pia Jesu]

What an experience you must have had, Totally Franciscan!  I believe that God is pleased and blesses individuals

who take the "leap of faith" to enter religious life--regardless if they stay or not.  And speaking of the conversation

you overheard regarding Carmel's Black Fast, we can put it into the context of what Joseph F. Schmidt, FSC writes

(of St. Therese of Lisieux) in Everything is Grace:

 

  "[She]could not, however, possibly have known the details of the community life that she was entering, with its

    small and petty aspects.  Nor could she have known the details of the difficult feelings that community life with

    strangers would evoke in her.  And she could not possibly have known that 'the pain is in the details.'  [Yet] over

    the years she adopted the personal attitude of allowing her expectations to be purged and her hopes to blossom."

    (172)

 

Perhaps it was this grace of acceptance (not easy) of both the demands and joys of Carmel--her lack of "illusions" about

community life--that allowed her to persevere and become a saint!  So, we might be wise in saying that austerities are

more than just "doing penances."  They must be accompanied (through grace) by a complete change of heart--metanoia!

 

 

 

[Julie de Sales]

I remember once talking to an old cloistered nun about discipline. And she said that when she entered the sisters still practiced it, but one sister in particular, maybe because of fear, I don't know, was hitting into a pillow instead of her shoulders. Not everyone is comfortable with this type of penance.