Any Rebuttals To This Video?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYRs-g1zNNc

Is any of what he's saying true (regarding seminaries)?

[Era Might]

I don't know what goes on in seminaries, but people who seek to become ministers are human beings, and have the same struggles as anyone else, including crises of faith.

[Era Might]

A good book on this topic is "The Power and the Glory" by Graham Greene, about an alcoholic priest during the Mexican Revolution.

[Apotheoun]

I have run into priests and religious who I would say were not really Catholic any more. Some of them may be agnostics, and others may be atheists, while still others have become spiritual in a general non-Catholic way (I would say that many of them subscribe to a modern type of gnosticism). Nevertheless, I sincerely doubt that the Vatican is going to become a museum any time soon.

 

 

Postscript: Just because a lot of people who get master's degrees in theology do not become ministers does not mean that all of those individuals have become atheists. I have a master's in theology, and I have never been mistaken for an atheist.   :dance:

[Apteka]

Is any of what he's saying true (regarding seminaries)?

 

There's really no way to verify what he is saying, and I would imagine great differences between a Roman Catholic seminary and a Protestant one. I will say though that based on my personal interaction with Priests, it does seem that few actually believe in the Faith (and by this I mean Roman Catholic faith as it has been taught through the centuries, whether they still believe in God is even harder to say.)

 

The statistics certainly show a sharp drop in faith, but this is not due to some triumph of Atheist "reasoning." Catholicism is a very reasonable and well thought out religion, even if one disagrees with its teachings one must readily admit that the Church doesn't develop doctrine haphazardly. Centuries are usually spent meditating over theological and philosophical dilemmas before the Church makes a formal teaching on the issue. So "reason" is not so much the issue here as I think life-style choices are. It's for the same reason why Americans are overweight rather than fit, the latter is demanding and difficult, the former is easy and comfortable. I think it's much easier to live an Atheist lifestyle than a Catholic one, I mean contraception and sex until marriage are deal breakers for most! As an atheist there is no need to curb your wants and desires, no ethical or moral worries in their decisions, it is essentially "freedom" in the most decadent understanding of the term. No system of thought bearing an ascetic component, i.e. discipline oneself/curbing desires for spiritual advancement can compete with the contemporary gluttonous lifestyle of the West, and again I emphasize that this also applies to non-spiritual issues, e.g. health, career, etc. So my point is the loss of faith is more to do with laziness than reason.

 

As for the speakers final point, we should not be so presumptuous. Yes, Roman Catholicism is in dire straights but the future is uncertain. All we really need is something to disrupt the system, and an ensuing collapse would bring an end to the Western decadent lifestyle. Another great war, a global epidemic, or even a financial collapse of our economic system would do just that. Such chaos would unveil the blindfold most Westerners live under, and the consumer would then have to transform back into a real human being, where things like purpose, reason, and a holisitic understanding of oneself begin to make sense again. As the old saying goes, there are no Atheists in fox holes.

[Era Might]

As for the speakers final point, we should not be so presumptuous. Yes, Roman Catholicism is in dire straights but the future is uncertain. All we really need is something to disrupt the system, and an ensuing collapse would bring an end to the Western decadent lifestyle. Another great war, a global epidemic, or even a financial collapse of our economic system would do just that. Such chaos would unveil the blindfold most Westerners live under, and the consumer would then have to transform back into a real human being, where things like purpose, reason, and a holisitic understanding of oneself begin to make sense again. As the old saying goes, there are no Atheists in fox holes.

 

Apocalyptic fanaticism and dreams of a great catastrophe to wash everything away does not lead to "holistic understanding." It leads to the Holocaust. There were no atheists in the foxholes of WWI, but there were Nazis.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Era Might

[Apotheoun]

Apocalyptic fanaticism and dreams of a great catastrophe to wash everything away does not lead to "holistic understanding." It leads to the Holocaust. There are no atheists in foxholes, but there are Nazis.

I tend to agree. Is the Church in a crisis? Yes. But does that mean that we should give up hope? No. After all, hope is an infused divine virtue. 

Edited September 15, 2013 by Apotheoun

[John Ryan]

There's really no way to verify what he is saying, and I would imagine great differences between a Roman Catholic seminary and a Protestant one. I will say though that based on my personal interaction with Priests, it does seem that few actually believe in the Faith (and by this I mean Roman Catholic faith as it has been taught through the centuries, whether they still believe in God is even harder to say.)

 

The statistics certainly show a sharp drop in faith, but this is not due to some triumph of Atheist "reasoning." Catholicism is a very reasonable and well thought out religion, even if one disagrees with its teachings one must readily admit that the Church doesn't develop doctrine haphazardly. Centuries are usually spent meditating over theological and philosophical dilemmas before the Church makes a formal teaching on the issue. So "reason" is not so much the issue here as I think life-style choices are. It's for the same reason why Americans are overweight rather than fit, the latter is demanding and difficult, the former is easy and comfortable. I think it's much easier to live an Atheist lifestyle than a Catholic one, I mean contraception and sex until marriage are deal breakers for most! As an atheist there is no need to curb your wants and desires, no ethical or moral worries in their decisions, it is essentially "freedom" in the most decadent understanding of the term. No system of thought bearing an ascetic component, i.e. discipline oneself/curbing desires for spiritual advancement can compete with the contemporary gluttonous lifestyle of the West, and again I emphasize that this also applies to non-spiritual issues, e.g. health, career, etc. So my point is the loss of faith is more to do with laziness than reason.

 

As for the speakers final point, we should not be so presumptuous. Yes, Roman Catholicism is in dire straights but the future is uncertain. All we really need is something to disrupt the system, and an ensuing collapse would bring an end to the Western decadent lifestyle. Another great war, a global epidemic, or even a financial collapse of our economic system would do just that. Such chaos would unveil the blindfold most Westerners live under, and the consumer would then have to transform back into a real human being, where things like purpose, reason, and a holisitic understanding of oneself begin to make sense again. As the old saying goes, there are no Atheists in fox holes.

 

While I do not think the situation in atheistic thinking is quite as dire as you describe, I do believe there is a lot of truth to your words. New Atheism appears to be a very decadent philosophy based upon a kind of preference utilitarianism. One only needs to compare the Old Atheism to the new. The old vanguard were poets, novelists and philosophers, whether Nietzsche or Sartre. They had an aesthetic imagination. They dreamt of what humanity could be whether they were aristocratic perfectionists or staunch Marxists. The new vanguard are scientists who seek to reduce the question of God to a dry empirical fact. The passion in their bones is so rigid. They may rail against the evils of religion, but none of them can compare to the glorious passion of Marx's dialectical humanism, or Nietzsche's scathing remarks. There is no positive vision of what humanity could be beyond a scientific preference utilitarianism. That the new vanguard is based in science tells everything. There is no rich philosophy, history, aesthetic or meaning to the new atheism.

 

I actually love reading Nieztsche, Marx and Freud. Many of their criticisms of religion are valid, and I have developed the way I approach my Roman Catholicism with those critiques in mind. I constantly search out my faith to ensure it is not a crutch or a delusional neurosis, but a real vibrant faith that is in it for the good itself — as Kierkegaard writes — and not because I think God will bless me or I will be bless in the afterlife. The new atheism offers me nothing. Their books are filled with nonsense and half-truths.

Edited September 15, 2013 by John Ryan

[Apotheoun]

On the issues brought up in the video it is best to remain calm. Panic over perceived problems in the Church are not going to benefit anyone. Should a person protect his faith from attack? Yeah. He should try to protect the faith of his loved ones and friends too, but the real way to do that is to simply live the Christian life, as Christians have always done. Worrying about the future is pointless.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

 As the old saying goes, there are no Atheists in fox holes.

Lol sorry, I couldn't help myself: http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/

Thank you all for your input. I found out Dan Dennet did not interview any Catholic or Orthodox priests in his study. I'm interested in finding out whether a good chunk of those who enter Catholic seminary end up losing their faith because of what they learn. I'd be surprised if this was the case. 

Side note:  http://www.clergyproject.org
                    ^ This is an interesting website.

Edited September 15, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Apotheoun]

I have an Orthodox friend (the Phatmasser Oik) who was recently ordained a priest in the OCA, and he does not appear to have lost his faith. In fact, he seems more zealous than ever.   :paco:

 

[Apteka]

Apocalyptic fanaticism and dreams of a great catastrophe to wash everything away does not lead to "holistic understanding." It leads to the Holocaust. There were no atheists in the foxholes of WWI, but there were Nazis.

 

I agree with you that such a catastrophe would bring utter destruction, and it's not something I look forward to. But my point is that the loss of faith we see is attributable largely to the ease and comfort that predominates Western society, take that away and things like suffering can be very transformative.

[Apteka]

Thank you all for your input. I found out Dan Dennet did not interview any Catholic or Orthodox priests in his study. I'm interested in finding out whether a good chunk of those who enter Catholic seminary end up losing their faith because of what they learn. I'd be surprised if this was the case. 

Side note:  http://www.clergyproject.org
                    ^ This is an interesting website.

 

I would argue most baptized Catholics don't have the faith to begin with, let alone lose it during formation in seminary.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I agree with you that such a catastrophe would bring utter destruction, and it's not something I look forward to. But my point is that the loss of faith we see is attributable largely to the ease and comfort that predominates Western society, take that away and things like suffering can be very transformative.

I see it differently. Promoting pain and suffering as tools for bringing people to God insinuates that belief in God is merely a crutch. Despair and hopelessness should not be the prerequisites for faith. 

Edited September 15, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I would argue most baptized Catholics don't have the faith to begin with, let alone lose it during formation in seminary.

Interesting. But why would those without faith enter into a seminary?