Crazy Dream, Crazy Question

[AccountDeleted]

When I read the link below -a few days ago , I was S.H.A.T.T.E.R.E.D..........

 

Thought all this goes on in the dark , under cover up of Good  only in today's world in developing countries. But its been going on in Cultic fashion since the early church......... Can't swallow it......... Such things shake one's vocation to the roots.......

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/50685-the-early-christian-agapetae-or-virgins-the-cosmic-mystery-of-the-church/

 

 

I don't know why you are reading (and it appears also believing) Mormon forums????

 

The Bible has all kinds of things in it that are subject to interpretation. We have the teachings of the Church to keep us on the straight and narrow about all of this - why turn to a Mormon interpretation and then get S.H.A.T.T.E.R.E.D about it?

 

I'm confused.

[beatitude]

To put things in perspective, roughly one in three women will suffer from sexual violence during her lifetime, with the risk increasing markedly in war zones or heavily militarized areas. Why would nuns be exempt? This happens. I think that our horror stems from the fact that we are conditioned to see rape as this very rare crime that lurks out there in the shadows rather than a common thing that so many women have to confront.

 

Also, Christian men have committed rape - until very recently marital rape wasn't even against the law because it was felt that men should just have unfettered access to their wives whenever they wanted. They brought up all sorts of twisted biblical justifications to support this. Christians have committed murder and justified it with scripture. Christians have supported slavery and justified it with scripture. This is proof that people can sin and then go on to profane what is most sacred by twisting it in support of their sin. That shouldn't shake anybody's vocation, but rather strengthen it - we need to learn to love all the harder in response to this kind of cruelty, the seeds of which are present even in ourselves.

[God's Beloved]

No, I'm not  depending on Mormonic interpretation. That  discussion does contain references to authentic sources like Fathers of the Church . St. Jerome has written very strong words against such practices. It has been condemned in early church councils too. I did a lot of research on this last week and discovered shocking facts.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01202a.htm

 

http://catholicism.academic.ru/12540/Agapetae

 

 

 

Am indeed praying that  this crisis will only deepen my faith and meaning in my fundamental vocation.

Edited September 14, 2013 by God's Beloved

[AccountDeleted]

No, I'm not  depending on Mormonic interpretation. That  discussion does contain references to authentic sources like Fathers of the Church . St. Jerome has written very strong words against such practices. It has been condemned in early church councils too. I did a lot of research on this last week and discovered shocking facts.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01202a.htm

 

http://catholicism.academic.ru/12540/Agapetae

 

 

 

Am indeed praying that  this crisis will only deepen my faith and meaning in my fundamental vocation.

 

 

I still don't get the problem. This all happened a long time ago. In the past, priests and nuns and even Popes broke their vows of chastity and some even had children. These abuses occurred in religious life and in consecrated virgins it appears. That doesn't mean that one need lose faith in all of these vocations today. I mean, we can see that there have been abusive priests and nuns even in recent times, but that doesn't negate all the good that is done by holy religious. So the things done by CVs in the past - or even today for that matter, shouldn't affect anyone's faith in the vocation itself. Should it?

 

Maybe I am just not understanding your concerns.

[God's Beloved]

What happened in the early church  seems to have continued over the centuries -like a secret cultic practice between clergy and consecrated [ religious] women and is prevalent in the developing countries. Radical feminists who have interviewed women victims  abused by clergy who used mystic arguments to manipulate vulnerable , naive young women , state that it is the spousal spirituality that causes this.

 

Readers are mature enough to read in between the lines.I don't wish to provide links to reliable sources  that indicate the severity of this problem in some parts of the world . This is to avoid any sour feelings  or misinterpretation of my motivations or any controversy.

[beatitude]

What happened in the early church  seems to have continued over the centuries -like a secret cultic practice between clergy and consecrated [ religious] women and is prevalent in the developing countries. Radical feminists who have interviewed women victims  abused by clergy who used mystic arguments to manipulate vulnerable , naive young women , state that it is the spousal spirituality that causes this.

 

Readers are mature enough to read in between the lines.I don't wish to provide links to reliable sources  that indicate the severity of this problem in some parts of the world . This is to avoid any sour feelings  or misinterpretation of my motivations or any controversy.

 

I have done quite a bit of academic research into radical feminism as a political philosophy, and I'm particularly interested in radical feminist approaches to religion (usually very critical). I have not come across one single radical feminist activist or researcher who has been interviewing consecrated women and exposing an ancient cultic network of abuse, and if there were such interviews out there, I'd expect to know about it. It sounds like something out of The Da Vinci Code - or those anti-Catholic Protestant tracts that were so popular a hundred years back, which focused on virginal vulnerable nuns being raped by rapacious priests.

 

Clergymen who commit abuse are likely to use religious arguments to manipulate their victims. This is how abuse works - it doesn't just consist of men forcing themselves physically on women, but on grooming them and trying to gaslight them into thinking the abuse is somehow acceptable or justified. Fathers who rape their daughters often succeed in brainwashing their children into believing that it's a deserved punishment for some transgression, so a natural extension of parental responsibility - or even an act of love. Teachers who commit abuse may groom the child by saying that he or she is the most special student in the class and they want to help them through extra attention, but that no one must find out, because teachers aren't supposed to have favourites. Each and every abuser is capable of using his position in this way to influence the victim. This doesn't mean they're part of some cultic ring. It isn't a feature unique to abusive priests. It's a feature of abusers generally. I work in a psych unit and I've heard it more times than I can count from survivors of child sexual abuse.

[God's Beloved]

Beatitude ,  I do not wish to start a controversy over words , meanings etc. on Vocation station .

 

We do not know which parts of the world we come from and I need to observe some amount of discretion regarding my identity , location etc. When  I mentioned ' secret cultic practice'  I did not mean secret cult in the strict sense of the words , but a tradition in the shadows of institutions of consecrated life which  are cult-like.

 

You can do plenty of research on this through the internet. Try tapping countries rich in vocations. Please forgive me for not discussing this any further on vocation station.

 

Best wishes,

 

GB

[ChristinaTherese]

Just one comment, GB. I didn't read very far in the first link you provided, and I haven't read any of the others, but the scripture quotes at the top were totally out of context. Protestants have a long tradition of taking a few verses out of context and making them agree with whatever they want. This does not mean that the scripture actually says that. Think of Tradition and what it says, as well as commentaries by the saints and the fathers, and I'm sure you'll get a totally different interpretation. Also, prayer. And then when all is said and done, I'm going to just believe that they're Mormon and (as usual) quoting out of context to fit their agenda. And I'm going to trust that, although she is not perfect yet, I can trust the Church and accept that she is not "a museum for saints" but "a hospital for sinners".

[AccountDeleted]

Beatitude ,  I do not wish to start a controversy over words , meanings etc. on Vocation station .

 

We do not know which parts of the world we come from and I need to observe some amount of discretion regarding my identity , location etc. When  I mentioned ' secret cultic practice'  I did not mean secret cult in the strict sense of the words , but a tradition in the shadows of institutions of consecrated life which  are cult-like.

 

You can do plenty of research on this through the internet. Try tapping countries rich in vocations. Please forgive me for not discussing this any further on vocation station.

 

Best wishes,

 

GB

 

 

GB- without proper sourcing,  I would find it hard to accept that this is a common practice, even in Third World countries. I have read online of an individual case of a nun being forced to have sex with a priest  in one of these countries - it was India I think. But if it is a wide-spread practice, then I would think that it would end up being reported to a Bishop or eventually to the Holy See.

 

If you are aware of such practices, then by all means, you should report this at once. I am sure that our Holy Father would look into it - he isn't the kind of person to sit back and allow such things to go on.

 

I have lived in communities that had cult-like tendencies in their approach to authority, but in none of them was there any sexual misconduct by anyone. I think that there is this sick fascination with priests and nuns by those who don't understand celibacy and who want to imagine all manner of lascivious things going on. There is even a youtube video (audio only) by a Protestant woman who claims to have been a Catholic before - she allegedly lived in a convent in the US during the 50s where she was forced to have sex with priests to satisfy their foul appetites, etc, and she had to help force other nuns into the same and there were babies that were sold or something. The whole thing is so over the top that it sounds like a bad porn novel. People who hate Catholics and who don't understand religious life can be vicious.

 

It is not necessary for you to discuss details here on VS - highly inappropriate I would think, but there are people you can PM (myself included) if your life has been affected by such a thing or you want to help someone else but don't know how. We aren't living in the dark ages anymore and abuse of any kind should be reported immediately.

[God's Beloved]

I do not wish to comment on this any further or receive comments with a patronizing tone . It is enough that Discerners should be aware of the positive and negative possibilities in embracing consecrated / religious life . It is only a few years ago.......people were in a state of denial regarding  child abuse by clergy and religious........and then the bomb exploded.

 

I just remembered the song .......It takes courage to answer a call........

[AccountDeleted]

I do not wish to comment on this any further or receive comments with a patronizing tone . It is enough that Discerners should be aware of the positive and negative possibilities in embracing consecrated / religious life . It is only a few years ago.......people were in a state of denial regarding  child abuse by clergy and religious........and then the bomb exploded.

 

I just remembered the song .......It takes courage to answer a call........

 

 

I wasn't trying to patronize you or to get you to talk about this on the phorum any more. I offered to communicate with you via private messenger and offered you suggestions to help deal with possibly abusive situations. You talk about courage but then you refuse to discuss your real concerns so they can be addressed.

 

I do wish though that you wouldn't try to warn discerners about possible bad things in religious life if you aren't prepared to discuss what these are or to support what you are saying with evidence. Posting links to inflammatory and unreliable Mormon forums is neither helpful nor responsible. And if you don't want to discuss these topics, then why even raise them in the first place?

 

I am not saying that there aren't negative concerns about some aspects of religious life that should be discussed in a considered, mature and charitable way but we have had more than enough negativity on VS in the past and don't need more of it now. If you are having concerns about your own vocation then obviously you need to deal with this, but so far, all you have posted has been innuendo and rumor. So yes, please let us drop this now if that is all it is going to be. This is a place to support religious life and the priesthood, not cast aspersions on it.

[Lil'Nun]

I have had a quick Google and I cannot find much - apart from isolated cases of rape by members of the public, and we know Nuns and Sisters are not exempt from being victims of violence - that has been reported, much less reported from a reliable, mainstream source rather than obscure forum or blog. Maybe I am using the wrong keywords? 

But just to back up what others have said if you have concerns then you must refer them up to your Bishop, Archbishop or even the Holy Father - nothing can be done when there is no awareness.

 

[God's Beloved]

Try to google this one :  sexual abuse of women religious by priests in Africa

 

Kindly do not drag me into this discussion on VS . If any of you wish to reflect on this further then please start a thread on some other part of Phatmass. I'll  give direct links to  Church councils, Fathers of the Church , National conferences of consecrated / religious women etc. and shall be happy to discuss what can be done as responsible catholic women to better the quality of consecrated life and its witness. Authentic vocations are needed to be the candles that dispel the darkness.

[AccountDeleted]

Try to google this one :  sexual abuse of women religious by priests in Africa

 

Kindly do not drag me into this discussion on VS . If any of you wish to reflect on this further then please start a thread on some other part of Phatmass. I'll  give direct links to  Church councils, Fathers of the Church , National conferences of consecrated / religious women etc. and shall be happy to discuss what can be done as responsible catholic women to better the quality of consecrated life and its witness. Authentic vocations are needed to be the candles that dispel the darkness.

 

 

GB - If you don't stop posting innuendos without evidence, then you will end up being reported. I am going to ask if this thread can be closed.

[Aloysius]

A quick search reveals Vatican has acknowledged there is a problem in some missionary areas.  These kinds of problems do happen throughout history, but I think we should listen to Beatitude who is absolutely right to call out any spiritual arguments by abusers over the course of history as the same as any other type of victim grooming.  Any abuse anyone is aware of should always be reported immediately.

 

However, this discussion doesn't belong in Vocation Station, though, so topic closed.