Apotheoun Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 This is a no-brainer. Of course God loves every human being, but He will not force anyone to love Him, and that is why hell exists. Hell is the creation of those who reject faith in God, but their decision to reject Him does not change His love for them, and that is why they will feel eternal pain (i.e., the fire of God's eternal love) should they die in that condition of hatred or indifference to their Creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) "Now, according to Francis, one can reject God, reject the True Religion, and only needs to follow their conscience, and such a person has a chance!"Yes, but that is someone who is refusing to accept the Church and God. IOW, they accept that there is a God and yet refuse God and therefore, the Church.Apteka is discussing the atheist here.An Atheist is one who does not believe there is a God.So my point is that if an atheist wants to enter Heaven, he must accept that there is a Heaven since God is heaven and therefore accept God, which means he is not an atheist.I should have made it clear in my last post that the definition of an atheist is one who rejects that there is a God. I thought all understood that. Edited September 18, 2013 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 What all this actually makes clear is that the pope should stop giving off the cuff interviews, and should stop writing unofficial letters that the media will - of course - try to turn into statements of Catholic doctrine, and stick to what popes are good at, i.e., preaching the good news of Christ. If there is one thing the world does not need, it is a sound bite pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 AMEN.Just cause he said something to the media, that doesnt make it Doctrine.Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) AMEN. Just cause he said something to the media, that doesnt make it Doctrine. Sheesh. I did not say that it did. Instead I said that that is how the news media takes it, which is why we get these stupid sensationalist headlines. It seems that after every useless off the cuff interview there are more questions than actual answers. Perhaps it would be better if Pope Francis was a bit more scripted (or even just prepared). Postscript: Sorry I took your comment as critical initially, rather than seeing it as more-or-less supportive. God bless. Edited September 18, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 I did not say that it did. Instead I said that that is how the news media takes it, which is why we get these stupid sensationalist headlines. It seems that after every useless off the cuff interview there are more questions than actual answers. Perhaps it would be better if Pope Francis was a bit more scripted (or even just prepared). Postscript: Sorry I took your comment as critical initially, rather than seeing it as more-or-less supportive. God bless. LOL. I was just about to say "relax, Im agreeing with you" but you get it now.No foul.Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) "Now, according to Francis, one can reject God, reject the True Religion, and only needs to follow their conscience, and such a person has a chance!" Yes, but that is someone who is refusing to accept the Church and God. IOW, they accept that there is a God and yet refuse God and therefore, the Church. Apteka is discussing the atheist here. An Atheist is one who does not believe there is a God. So my point is that if an atheist wants to enter Heaven, he must accept that there is a Heaven since God is heaven and therefore accept God, which means he is not an atheist. I should have made it clear in my last post that the definition of an atheist is one who rejects that there is a God. I thought all understood that. If someone does not believe in a God, how would that be different than if one believed in a different God? Also, wasn't the Pope addressing an Atheist? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Edited September 18, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) If someone knows God exist or a Higher Power yet hates God/Higher Power then they are pry out of luck....That is different then say an agnostic who doesn't know if God exist and doesn't have faith in God/Higher Power....If an agnostic is a great husband for their whole life and a great father and family member I'm not prepared to say they are going to hell because they never had faith in God and became Catholic....And if you are you're an idiot... Edited September 18, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 One cannot ask for the mercy of God with contrition and sincerty without first being open to at least the possibility of God existing. I agree, and I think that was his primary point. I think these issues are tricky. If people have no hope (hope of course is different from presumption), then I think it's really easier to despair and that can have real impacts on one's salvation as much as presumption can. I didn't see Papa Francis saying "just follow your conscience and you'll be all set" I heard something more along the lines "God is merciful, maybe if one obeys their conscience then salvation is possible, but you conscience depends on having an accurate sense of right and wrong" That's just my botched interpretation, but I see nothing scandalous or shocking about it. I hope that atheists receive the prayers of Our Lady at the hour of death and repent before they die. I really do. But I don't presume their salvation or damnation, not my place. I would urge people to make the decision to follow Christ consciously and soon because presuming that God's mercy will be there for you is a really risky game. Although God is most merciful, we do not deserve it especially after we repeatedly reject his mercy throughout our lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) The older I get it seems to me it comes down to your actions where you end up in the end...But I'm the first to say we need the Church....We need Christ and the Church to tell us right from wrong....Because an atheist/agnostic may think they are following their conscience and commit adultry their whole life and then what....They die and they face a Holy God that hates adultry...So not coming to faith in God and not accepting the Church in your life is risky buisness....Because without faith and the Church it seems like one has to almost do it perfectly in life with their actions and form their conscience perfectly on their own.....And that's tough because were all messed up sinners....And Christ who was perfect died for us so we wouldn't have to be perfect....Not that we shouldn't aim for perfection....But ya rejecting what He did for you is a heck of a gamble if all ends up to be real.... Edited September 18, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 (edited) I agree, and I think that was his primary point. I think these issues are tricky. If people have no hope (hope of course is different from presumption), then I think it's really easier to despair and that can have real impacts on one's salvation as much as presumption can. I didn't see Papa Francis saying "just follow your conscience and you'll be all set" I heard something more along the lines "God is merciful, maybe if one obeys their conscience then salvation is possible, but you conscience depends on having an accurate sense of right and wrong" That's just my botched interpretation, but I see nothing scandalous or shocking about it. I hope that atheists receive the prayers of Our Lady at the hour of death and repent before they die. I really do. But I don't presume their salvation or damnation, not my place. I would urge people to make the decision to follow Christ consciously and soon because presuming that God's mercy will be there for you is a really risky game. Although God is most merciful, we do not deserve it especially after we repeatedly reject his mercy throughout our lives. I believe he's point is that following one's conscience will put one on the path to salvation. That God's mercy is available to all whom seek Him out for it, even atheists. But he does not contradict the Church's doctrine on no salvation outside the Church, nor does he contradict himself when he stated one cannot have Christ without the Church. Because if one cannot have true faith in Christ without the Church one cannot have salvation with Christ. Saint Paul's divinely revealed words remain true, without faith there is no pleasing God. Edited September 19, 2013 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 salvation without Christ. * Woops lolz :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Let me outline the problem for you. In the past, if an Atheist asked the Pope, "Hey, Fatha, can I still get to heaven?" The Pope would have replied, "Not as an atheist, and anyone who says otherwise, anathema!" One needs (needed?) to believe in God and his judgment judgment, and have at least an implicit faith in Catholicism, to even consider a *hope* for their salvation. Now, according to Francis, one can reject God, reject the True Religion, and only needs to follow their conscience, and such a person has a chance! Doesn't that sound great! What's the point of evangelizing? Just urge the Atheists and non-Catholics to follow their conscience! Shoot, if you disagree with the Church's teachings on lets say contraception, don't worry! As long as it's your conscience telling you it's ok, you too can disregard Church teaching and get to heaven! Isn't it wonderful to be alive in the new springtime? *tongue-in-cheek* Congratulations, you are more Catholic than the Pope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 I believe he's point is that following one's conscience will put one on the path to salvation. That God's mercy is available to all whom seek Him out for it, even atheists. But he does not contradict the Church's doctrine on no salvation outside the Church, nor does he contradict himself when he stated one cannot have Christ without the Church. Because if one cannot have true faith in Christ without the Church one cannot have salvation with Christ. Saint Paul's divinely revealed words remain true, without faith there is no pleasing God. God's mercy is limitless Knight, one need only follow their conscience. Even an Atheist who does not seek faith can have hope in that, if there turns out to be a heaven, they can still make it if they sincerely obeyed the dictates of their conscience. Concepts like "faith," "Christ," "church" play not part in the answer. The Pope hath announced it to the world, and the worldly rejoice! Read it again... and maybe even twice... Here it is from the Vatican's own site: "Above all, you ask if the God of Christians forgives those who do not believe and who do not seek faith. Given the premise, and this is fundamental, that the mercy of God is limitless for those who turn to him with a sincere and contrite heart, the issue for the unbeliever lies in obeying his or her conscience. There is sin, even for those who have no faith, when conscience is not followed. Listening to and obeying conscience means deciding in the face of what is understood to be good or evil. It is on the basis of this choice that the goodness or evil of our actions is determined." http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/letters/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130911_eugenio-scalfari_en.html "Without conscience it is impossible to please God"... didn't Paul say something like that? Eh, who cares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 Congratulations, you are more Catholic than the Pope Many Catholics have been more catholic than some of the historical Popes. I don't claim that for myself though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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