CatholicsAreKewl Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 See you guys there :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 (edited) There's A Heaven for a gangsta Mustarde Edited September 17, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted September 17, 2013 Author Share Posted September 17, 2013 Full translation into English here: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/09/full-text-of-popes-letter-to-atheist.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 "First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith. Given that - and this is fundamental - God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision." so basically some really subtle quirks in the translation and reframing it. yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted September 18, 2013 Author Share Posted September 18, 2013 "First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith. Given that - and this is fundamental - God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision." so basically some really subtle quirks in the translation and reframing it. yep Let me outline the problem for you. In the past, if an Atheist asked the Pope, "Hey, Fatha, can I still get to heaven?" The Pope would have replied, "Not as an atheist, and anyone who says otherwise, anathema!" One needs (needed?) to believe in God and his judgment judgment, and have at least an implicit faith in Catholicism, to even consider a *hope* for their salvation. Now, according to Francis, one can reject God, reject the True Religion, and only needs to follow their conscience, and such a person has a chance! Doesn't that sound great! What's the point of evangelizing? Just urge the Atheists and non-Catholics to follow their conscience! Shoot, if you disagree with the Church's teachings on lets say contraception, don't worry! As long as it's your conscience telling you it's ok, you too can disregard Church teaching and get to heaven! Isn't it wonderful to be alive in the new springtime? *tongue-in-cheek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) Let me outline the problem for you. In the past, if an Atheist asked the Pope, "Hey, Fatha, can I still get to heaven?" The Pope would have replied, "Not as an atheist, and anyone who says otherwise, anathema!" One needs (needed?) to believe in God and his judgment judgment, and have at least an implicit faith in Catholicism, to even consider a *hope* for their salvation. Now, according to Francis, one can reject God, reject the True Religion, and only needs to follow their conscience, and such a person has a chance! Doesn't that sound great! What's the point of evangelizing? Just urge the Atheists and non-Catholics to follow their conscience! Shoot, if you disagree with the Church's teachings on lets say contraception, don't worry! As long as it's your conscience telling you it's ok, you too can disregard Church teaching and get to heaven! Isn't it wonderful to be alive in the new springtime? *tongue-in-cheek* I believe you're twisting his words. As a Catholic, you would have to follow church teaching. He seems to be implying that God might not give eternal punishment to a person for honest disbelief if that person lives according to his conscience. I don't think Pope Francis is reinventing the wheel. JP2 said similar things, no? Edited September 18, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted September 18, 2013 Author Share Posted September 18, 2013 I believe you're twisting his words. As a Catholic, you would have to follow church teaching. He seems to be implying that God might not give eternal punishment to a person for honest disbelief if that person lives according to his conscience. I don't think Pope Francis is reinventing the wheel. JP2 said similar things, no? The logical conclusion to his statement is that one only needs to follow their conscience sincerely. There is no requirement for faith in Christ, being a member of the Church, receiving the sacraments, etc. In essence, salvation does not depend on being Catholic at all, and with this novel thinking you begin to understand why the Roman Church no longer seeks conversion, but instead focuses on coexistence and ecumenism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) The logical conclusion to his statement is that one only needs to follow their conscience sincerely. There is no requirement for faith in Christ, being a member of the Church, receiving the sacraments, etc. In essence, salvation does not depend on being Catholic at all, and with this novel thinking you begin to understand why the Roman Church no longer seeks conversion, but instead focuses on coexistence and ecumenism. I still don't think this is the message. Even if it is, I don't see why you care. Do you need to be rewarded to do what you feel is right? Does your reward need to be better than those who you feel are lesser than you? Do I have to quote your God to show you how silly this sounds? I understand if you feel this position is unbiblical but arguing against it just because you feel that it makes morality pointless is weird to me. Edited September 18, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 God created the vast majority of people destined to populate Hell. Heaven is just one house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 A little house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) on a prairie!! Edited September 18, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 "First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith. Given that - and this is fundamental - God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision." so basically some really subtle quirks in the translation and reframing it. yep One cannot ask for the mercy of God with contrition and sincerty without first being open to at least the possibility of God existing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 God created the vast majority of people destined to populate Hell. Heaven is just one house. God created everyone to be with Him, but whether the divine presence is experienced as bliss or pain is left to the free will of each man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 I think you are misunderstanding again. You wrote: "if an Atheist asked the Pope, "Hey, Fatha, can I still get to heaven?" The Pope would have replied, "Not as an atheist, and anyone who says otherwise, anathema!" If an atheist wants to go to Heaven, then is he really an atheist? An atheist, by definition, is one who rejects God Since Heaven is God, then atheism rejects Heaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) Now, according to Francis, one can reject God, reject the True Religion, and only needs to follow their conscience, and such a person has a chance! Everybody has a chanch at heaven....Only God can judge a person, know their heart and all their thoughts...If a sincere atheist/agnostic person never comes to faith and lives a noble life yes the chanch of heaven exist for them....I believe in a loving just God who will judge that person fairly....Not just say you didn't believe you're going to hell for eternity no questions asked....I also believe little babies who die that aren't baptised aren't shut out from heaven for eternity either....If you don't like that o well....Or if you want to go back in time where Church leaders said it wasn't possible and everyone is going to hell except the " select few good catholics" I don't know what to tell you either....If the Church was still like that I would want no part of it... Edited September 18, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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