Aloysius Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 What chance do you think there is that Rome will institute a married priesthood with liturgical continence, since it already instituted a more or less Protestant version of the diaconate after Vatican II with no requirement for periodic continence? pretty sure I called it a pipe dream numerous times on this thread. as I've said before, it's not my decision to make, I don't think I would change to a married clergy if it were my decision, but as a layman I defer to the Church on that disciplinary matter, and simply muse about the things I would like about it if it were done, and the various ways I would like to see it done. celibacy is a higher calling as per St. Paul (doesn't make anyone 'better' or 'worse', the calling itself is higher because it imitates the heavenly state on earth, just like asceticism is a higher calling), which is why it should be promoted. there have been different ways of promoting it, ie not ordaining married men as bishops in the East. I've proposed a couple ways it could remain promoted in the West. you can't just have a married clergy with zero incentives for celibacy, it's just not a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 St Paul says that he 'wished everyone to be like him',i assume celibate in light of what he says afterwards that he 'understood this where not possible', so he recommended 'many times of abstinence', even for married people. So saint Paul was celibate according to holy scripture. Sorry again i wouldn't have a clue which letter this is from or where exactly you will find it, just search for the phrase 'many times of abstinence ' in the letters of st Paul, it will either be in the New Jerusalem version or the NAB version of the holy bible, i believe it to be those exact words 'many times of abstinence.' So Celibacy is indeed a part of Christianity as early as st Paul, and should play a part in the holy priesthood. And the Priesthood should be set aside from the ordinary, JC "many are called but few are chosen." these men are the chosen ones, and we all should believe and respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 pretty sure I called it a pipe dream numerous times on this thread. as I've said before, it's not my decision to make, I don't think I would change to a married clergy if it were my decision, but as a layman I defer to the Church on that disciplinary matter, and simply muse about the things I would like about it if it were done, and the various ways I would like to see it done. It is not my decision to make either, but I have no doubt that if the Roman Church alters its discipline on priestly celibacy it will go with the Protestant version of married clergy. It has chosen a more or less Protestant path in almost all of its reforms since the close of the Second Vatican Council, so why would this be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Yeah, and the Roman Church understands this well, because it has never required celibacy from all the faithful, but only from religious and those entering holy orders. There have been married layity in the past whom have taken a personal vow of chastity in there married state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 There have been married layity in the past whom have taken a personal vow of chastity in there married state. The key word in my post was "required." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 . . . it's not my decision to make . . . I guess we will have to wait and see what is proposed by the eight Cardinals chosen by Pope Francis to help him reform the Roman Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 no your correct, the layity are not required to be celibate. I was just thinking as to whether or not these marriage ministries encourage many times of abstinence right from the get go. But then with abortion in the west being so rampart perhaps we shouldn't abstain and should all have like 10 children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 There have been married layity in the past whom have taken a personal vow of chastity in there married state. married laity all take a vow of chastity when married in the Church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 (edited) married laity all take a vow of chastity when married in the Church You don't know what i'm talking about, i'm talking no sex. Zero, zip, zilch. I don't know what your talking about, so all the married people in the church don't have sex? Then where are all the children coming from, immaculate conception? Immaculate conception is a one show only. Are you talking of the vow to be with only one person your whole life/the one you marry, for richer or poorer,better or worse etc etc ? How is that chastity, your still having sex, though it only be with one person? Edited September 16, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted September 16, 2013 Author Share Posted September 16, 2013 You don't know what i'm talking about, i'm talking no sex. Zero, zip, zilch. I don't know what your talking about, so all the married people in the church don't have sex? Then where are all the children coming from, immaculate conception? Immaculate conception is a one show only. Are you talking of the vow to be with only one person your whole life/the one you marry, for richer or poorer,better or worse etc etc ? How is that chastity, your still having sex, though it only be with one person? Tab- you are getting celibacy and chastity confused. Celibacy is no sex at all with anyone. Chastity is abstention from unlawful sex - it's lawful for married couples to have sex with each other but not with anyone else. So married couples practice chastity but not celibacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Technically continence is not having sex. Celibacy is not marrying. Since as Catholics not marrying means not having sex we usually conflate them, but they are separate concepts. Interestingly, Latin clerics have traditionally been called to complete continence, regardless of their married or unmarried status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted September 16, 2013 Author Share Posted September 16, 2013 Technically continence is not having sex. Celibacy is not marrying. Since as Catholics not marrying means not having sex we usually conflate them, but they are separate concepts. Interestingly, Latin clerics have traditionally been called to complete continence, regardless of their married or unmarried status. That's interesting. Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 (edited) That's interesting. Thanks for the info. è°¢è°¢ä½ The debate surrounding that link I posted there has popped up on the internet quite a bit in the last few years. Dr. Peters has argued very strongly, and IMO compellingly, that the current state of canon law in the Church is remiss and in need of revisiting and perhaps reapplying, in its treatment of clerical continence. Obviously current interpretation of the law in a de facto sense is against Dr. Peters's conclusions, but that is not to say that at some future date his thesis might not be accepted. Edited September 16, 2013 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Tab- you are getting celibacy and chastity confused. Celibacy is no sex at all with anyone. Chastity is abstention from unlawful sex - it's lawful for married couples to have sex with each other but not with anyone else. So married couples practice chastity but not celibacy. aha ok. I thought chaste was not having sex. Thankyou for correcting me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Technically continence is not having sex. Celibacy is not marrying. Since as Catholics not marrying means not having sex we usually conflate them, but they are separate concepts. Interestingly, Latin clerics have traditionally been called to complete continence, regardless of their married or unmarried status. Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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