Calibacy For Priests - Vatican Secretary Of State

[EmilyAnn]

This has come up in the UK recently due to the new Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham. Some feel that it is incongruous to allow married ex-Anglican priests to receive Holy Orders but not allow married men to become priests outside it (since they are not a separate rite). If I remember correctly, the argument there has been to maintain celibacy as 'the norm' but allow married men to be ordained, and maintain celibacy for bishops. While I can't say I would find such a change in discipline problematic in principle, I do think perhaps now is not the time to make it. 

 

Basically a perception of modernism/modernization, rather than necessarily modernism per se. The headlines would all be "POPE GIVES IN TO MARRIED PRIESTHOOD DEMANDS", etc.. The perception would be that modern sensibilities 'finally won', that the Church is "finally recognizing modern needs and coming into the modern world", know what I mean? You and I would both know that is not true, but the perception alone would be harmful, especially for those less well-versed and less steeped in the faith.

 

I would tend to agree, and it's for that very reason I think now is definitely not the time for such a change to take place. It would come across as "well we won them over on the celibacy of priests, we're clearly right about x, y and z and they'll come to see it". In the current social climate, such a decision would only do harm. 

[arfink]

Basically a perception of modernism/modernization, rather than necessarily modernism per se. The headlines would all be "POPE GIVES IN TO MARRIED PRIESTHOOD DEMANDS", etc.. The perception would be that modern sensibilities 'finally won', that the Church is "finally recognizing modern needs and coming into the modern world", know what I mean? You and I would both know that is not true, but the perception alone would be harmful, especially for those less well-versed and less steeped in the faith.

 

People already think that about Pope Francis for his commentary on the treatment we should give to homosexuals. I don't know, if something is good for the Church we should not be concerned what the world thinks of us for doing it.

[Nihil Obstat]

People already think that about Pope Francis for his commentary on the treatment we should give to homosexuals. I don't know, if something is good for the Church we should not be concerned what the world thinks of us for doing it.

If it was a genuine good development, then that is one thing. But like I said, all things being equal. The perception of 'modernizing' would be negative. Potentially not hugely negative. Potentially only a small downside (potentially not), and therefore potentially outweighed by benefits, but I do think it is something to consider. And I do not think the benefits are very weighty at all, at this point.
What we do not want, ultimately, is for people to think that the Church's teachings are democratic or open to be changed by the broad opinions of popular culture. I think it is more important to foster the (correct) impression that the Church's teachings are timeless, regardless of what society at large thinks of it.
That is why the celibate priesthood could change, though perhaps should not. It is not, ultimately a matter of doctrine, but too much change can confuse people as to the proper relationship between the Church and popular opinion.

[Oremoose]

I have a  gut feeling that if we were ever going to allow priests to marry. So many people would then demand Woman priests. Under the banner of  "Two have become one flesh" with the reasoning that if one has the mark of holy orders and the two are now one then the wife also has that mark. I know it is ludicrous and other Rites may not have that problem. But People have done/said worse.  

[PhuturePriest]

I would agree with both of the previous replies. Yes, this is in the Orthodox Church.

 

But I think human nature being what it is J. Ryan has a good point. At this time in history, I don't think it would be very helpful to drop the requirement of celibacy. Our society is so sexualized, that it would have drastic repercussions in the Church.

 

I have hear many Episcopalian/Anglican priests say marriage and priesthood are extremely difficult. On the other hand, there are some men who have juggled the two vocations well.

 

It has been the Church's traditional teaching that the priest is wedded to his parish-the Church, the Bishop to his diocese.

 

The problem with "opening" things to discussion is that some will not take "no" for an answer, if that would be the result.

 

Blessings,

Sr. Mary Jeremiah, OP

 

Thank you for your unique view.

 

I honestly side with Jason Evert (And Sister Mary Jeremiah above) on this issue. Jason Evert said that yes, dropping the celibacy requirement for Priests might make a boom in vocations, but imagine if the Marines said "We need more Marines, so instead of making our recruits run, let's give them golf carts!" There would be a gigantic boom in Marines, but those Marines wouldn't be conditioned for battle. This isn't to say married Priests are less holy in any sense, but as Saint Paul himself says, when you are married, your heart is divided between God and your spouse and family, and a Priest should have his heart devoted completely to God. He is our spiritual Father. And let's face it: in terms of practicality, being married and being a clergymen at the same time is almost impossible. You can't fulfill the duties of both vocations to the full. A husband should be devoted to his wife and kids, and a priest should be devoted to his parish and the Church at large. Priests get calls at three in the morning for car wrecks, they wake up early every day and have to do the Liturgy of the Hours no matter what, they work all day until late at night, how on earth is a priest to be a good husband and biological father if he's working with other people all day? In the Fishers of Men video, a priest says that priests don't have time off or days off. They are working 24/7, and are always on call to their parish and any Catholic that asks for help. That's not a fitting job if you are married, because your wife will feel sad that you won't be around her pretty much ever, and the same for your kids. It will put a lot of strain on the relationship, and I just don't see how that would work in any practical sense, theological senses aside.

[Selah]

I have a  gut feeling that if we were ever going to allow priests to marry. So many people would then demand Woman priests. Under the banner of  "Two have become one flesh" with the reasoning that if one has the mark of holy orders and the two are now one then the wife also has that mark. I know it is ludicrous and other Rites may not have that problem. But People have done/said worse.  

 

Bah, rubbish. Priests have wives in the East (Presbyteras) and we aren't making women priests. Hell, the Eastern Church, it could be argued, actually places more restrictions on women than in the West. 

[arfink]

Thank you for your unique view.

 

I honestly side with Jason Evert (And Sister Mary Jeremiah above) on this issue. Jason Evert said that yes, dropping the celibacy requirement for Priests might make a boom in vocations, but imagine if the Marines said "We need more Marines, so instead of making our recruits run, let's give them golf carts!" There would be a gigantic boom in Marines, but those Marines wouldn't be conditioned for battle. This isn't to say married Priests are less holy in any sense, but as Saint Paul himself says, when you are married, your heart is divided between God and your spouse and family, and a Priest should have his heart devoted completely to God. He is our spiritual Father. And let's face it: in terms of practicality, being married and being a clergymen at the same time is almost impossible. You can't fulfill the duties of both vocations to the full. A husband should be devoted to his wife and kids, and a priest should be devoted to his parish and the Church at large. Priests get calls at three in the morning for car wrecks, they wake up early every day and have to do the Liturgy of the Hours no matter what, they work all day until late at night, how on earth is a priest to be a good husband and biological father if he's working with other people all day? In the Fishers of Men video, a priest says that priests don't have time off or days off. They are working 24/7, and are always on call to their parish and any Catholic that asks for help. That's not a fitting job if you are married, because your wife will feel sad that you won't be around her pretty much ever, and the same for your kids. It will put a lot of strain on the relationship, and I just don't see how that would work in any practical sense, theological senses aside.

 

Ambulance drivers and firemen and soldiers and a whole host of other people shouldn't get married either then. The Marines analogy is disingenuous, because if anything, asking a man to handle a family and priesthood is harder than just doing one. And I actually am friends with a Byzantine priest and another who is a sub-deacon who are married and do just fine as both fathers of families and fathers of a local parish.

[Nihil Obstat]

Bah, rubbish. Priests have wives in the East (Presbyteras) and we aren't making women priests. Hell, the Eastern Church, it could be argued, actually places more restrictions on womendo than in the West.

The East also did not implode their liturgy in the 60s and 70s. Perhaps for various disparate reasons they are in a doctrinally healthier position to begin with.

[Aloysius]

since bishops must of course still remain celibate, this would likely result in a radical shifting of the ecclesiastical order as monasteries would then be the places where most if not all bishops came from.  it would be fascinating to see how this played out, but it would certainly strengthen monasteries in our ecclesiology, it would be very interesting to see that... and that prospect makes me rather amenable to the idea.

 

the logistics on the parish level would also be interesting to see develop--priests would need to be paid more to raise families, standard rectories would no longer be sufficient, and moving priests between parishes would be much more difficult, et cetera.  which is a factor that would involve so many headaches that I would not want to bother with it.  however, I wonder if it would be possible to maintain the celibate priesthood for groups of pastors and associate pastors to live and work at the church, and allow for a supplemental married priesthood of men who did not necessarily do daily mass, did not get paid (or at least not that much), and actually had other jobs/careers.  that solution would nullify the effect on monasteries I previously suggested... the danger would be that many who might have otherwise become fully dedicated priests might go that route instead, and we would end up with less priests who were always available.

[Nihil Obstat]

That is a fascinating point on the nature of monasteries. I had not considered that before.

[KnightofChrist]

I don't think getting rid of the tradition of celibacy for priests in part or in whole would be good for the Church. The faithful and priests need more discipline not less of it. One of the causes for the crises in the Church today is because so many have become so lax and given up, forgotten, thrown away traditions and disciplines of the Church in the West. Married priests will not fix or help the crises of Faith in the Church today. We would have the same problems, only we'd have them with married priests. Properly teaching the faith in word and deed far more than today and taking action (not just words) against those that reject the faith in word and or deed is far more important and will do far more to help the Church for the better. For example action needs to be taken against those that believe they can support the mass murder of children and still present themselves as being in full union with the Church. I cannot tell you how many times Pro-Life non-catholics I've talked to, in an attempt to bring them in the Church have told me no because they view the Church as hypocritical. Because while she says she is prolife her Bishops allow their flock to be pro-abortion and they do nothing but talk. I have also spoken to Catholics who've lost their faith or fear losing because they have similar views as the prolife non-catholics.

I also believe Nilih is has a point, allowing married priests would only embolden the enemies of the Church who wish to conform her to the World's morals, or to destroy her.

[arfink]

Here are some of my reasons why I personally think a married priesthood might be an OK idea:

 

1: Our seminaries don't really teach men how to be celibate anymore. They expect men to do it, expect a charism of celibacy, but don't generally teach it. This seems very odd to me, since celibacy is not a natural state for man.

2: In the US, isolation is a very serious problem for priests.

3: In the US, many Catholics need to have holy matrimony modeled for them. Who better to do this than a priest?

 

Allowing for priests to be married is not a decrease in discipline, but would actually require more discipline. Assuming it's a lowering of standards is a rather ridiculous assumption. :P

[Nihil Obstat]

Your first point seems more a defect in seminaries than a reason for dropping celibacy.

[Aloysius]

That is a fascinating point on the nature of monasteries. I had not considered that before.

indeed, it's something I never really considered before either, it's a thought that has occurred to me having lived among the Coptic Orthodox in Egypt for the summer, their bishops and popes all come from the monasteries and most of their regular parish priests are married.  

[arfink]

Your first point seems more a defect in seminaries than a reason for dropping celibacy.

 

And yet fixing the seminaries doesn't seem to be on the radar.

 

The thing is, yes, priesthood is a call. But it's not a call you can just expect to be able to do just because you have been called. Grace builds on nature, so if you're going to ask for celibacy (a super-natural state) you need to do seminary differently. A married priesthood may in fact require less re-tooling of the seminary than training men in celibacy would take.