arfink Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 ZOMG SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT TYPICAL OF ALL ROMAN CATHOLICS MESSED UP A LITURGY AND IT'S ON YOUTUBE NOW, THE POPE IS AN APOSTATE, CATHOLICS DON'T CARE ABOUT LITURGY, ROME IS PROTESTANT NAO! Cuz that makes sense. Natch. :bananarap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 again, I am not isolating the issue from the liturgy, I am isolating it from historical questions about the last 50 years as those things are, indeed, different questions. of course everything is intimately related, I never suggested otherwise, the only things I've contradicted you on is the idea that all 'changes' are the same, as I suggest taking each particular change as a question on its own merits (including of course, its liturgical merits, but that doesn't mean "married priests will remove all sacred images and altar rails and give you communion in a paper cup") if you could kindly stop wildly accusing me of modernism and protestantism, I'd really appreciate it, I haven't even said I support changing the practice of celibacy, only mused about the possibilities of how to view it if it happened. you have asked good questions. of course the model I suggested about celibate priests still retaining control of the Church with a supplemental and perhaps unpaid (or barely paid) priesthood would maintain the possibility for daily mass with the practice of continence. the model where monasteries would be stronger would inevitably end up with less daily mass unless there was a serious push for celibate priests alongside it, perhaps insisting that all pastors at least be celibate. A better question is: will having married priests in the Roman Church restore images and altar rails? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 (edited) remember on this thread where our clash started, you asked me if that is the way it would be done, and I of course admitted the models I was describing were pipe dreams... but they're also important considerations for how we should approach it if the Roman Church did go in that direction. And so far your answer is to just do more new things. I guess once innovation (a word used by the Fathers to speak about heresy) is embraced it is impossible to stop it. Such is life I suppose. I will say this: it is sad that all the worst things I experienced as a Protestant are the very things that the Roman Church seems bound and determined to institute within its own life. Edited September 13, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 ZOMG SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT TYPICAL OF ALL ROMAN CATHOLICS MESSED UP A LITURGY AND IT'S ON YOUTUBE NOW, THE POPE IS AN APOSTATE, CATHOLICS DON'T CARE ABOUT LITURGY, ROME IS PROTESTANT NAO! Cuz that makes sense. Natch. :bananarap: The really sad thing is that Pope Francis just visited that cathedral and he did absolutely nothing to correct the liturgical abuses that go on there. But then the pope began one of his liturgies during World Youth Day with an opening flash mob instead of a hymn. My Orthodox friends at OC.net found that particularly hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I thought you already said that quite a few times. anyway, duly noted I guess... will married priests restore images and altar rails? as I mused in one post, maybe in some dioceses with more traditional bishops, where the bishops decline to rein in rebellious liturgist priests motivated by the lack of priests available who might have the potential to recruit men more well versed in the liturgy who were called to the married life but could receive a call to the priesthood were it possible for them. but anyway, would married priests bring rainbows and unicorns and fix every problem in the Church? no. but is it possible for a married priesthood in a traditional context to be beneficial in the Church? it is certainly possible, and there's nothing inherent to the idea of married priests that would inherently degrade the liturgy. it all depends on who they are and how they're formed, just as it now depends on that for the celibate priests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 ZOMG SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT TYPICAL OF ALL ROMAN CATHOLICS MESSED UP A LITURGY AND IT'S ON YOUTUBE NOW, THE POPE IS AN APOSTATE, CATHOLICS DON'T CARE ABOUT LITURGY, ROME IS PROTESTANT NAO! Cuz that makes sense. Natch. :bananarap: Liturgical abuses like that one, as well as lesser and worse variations are rampant in the Church today. I do wish Rome would do a lot more to stop it. As I said at the beginning of this thread married priests will do nothing to help stop the crises in the Church today if traditional disciplines are not first restored. And thus far there's seems to be no real strong push to put such abuses in check, and again many are de facto allowed to run around presenting themselves to be Catholic as they help the murder of millions, other than mostly words Rome and Bishops take mostly no action against them at all. It scares me quite frankly that so many do not take theses crises as seriously as they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Traditional bishop? Are there different kinds of bishops in the modern Roman Church? In Orthodoxy there are just bishops, with a few of them being given titles (e.g., metropolitan or patriarch) based upon the importance of their local Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Liturgical abuses like that one, as well as lesser and worse variations are rampant in the Church today. Agreed, and it is easy to find strange liturgies on Youtube. Of course, I don't have to watch them on Youtube because there are plenty of bizarre liturgies in the SF Bay Area that I can attend in person if I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 And I do so love how it's always the same youtube video that gets used over and over again. It changes only very rarely. First it was the clown mass video that was big. Then the scary puppets video. Now this one, because it so happens that Pope Francis went there and didn't cut people's heads off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 And I do so love how it's always the same youtube video that gets used over and over again. It changes only very rarely. First it was the clown mass video that was big. Then the scary puppets video. Now this one, because it so happens that Pope Francis went there and didn't cut people's heads off. Do you want me to post different videos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 There should be a rule that in order to talk about ongoing liturgical abuses you should have to use a new video about liturgical abuse every single time. Otherwise it looks like you're beating a dead horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Now this one, because it so happens that Pope Francis went there and didn't cut people's heads off. He didn't need to cut anyone's head off, but he could have reminded the bishop and priests serving there that the liturgy is sacred, and that circus music (another thing that has been used at that particular cathedral) is not appropriate during Catholic worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 (edited) There should be a rule that in order to talk about ongoing liturgical abuses you should have to use a new video about liturgical abuse every single time. Otherwise it looks like you're beating a dead horse. Do you want me to post more videos, because I can if you would like. Postscript: And I promise not to use the puppet video. :smile3: Edited September 13, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I'm not saying you have to now, I'm just saying there has to be a veritable cornucopia of great liturgical abuse videos you could be using, and I've seen this latest one being used a lot and it's old and stale. Live up to your potential bro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I'm not saying you have to now, I'm just saying there has to be a veritable cornucopia of great liturgical abuse videos you could be using, and I've seen this latest one being used a lot and it's old and stale. Live up to your potential bro! The one I just posted, which is not the worst one to have occurred at Our Lady of Aparecida basilica has to my knowledge never been posted at Phatmass. Now I admit that Aparecida TV (the Youtube channel for the Cathedral) is a treasure trove for liturgical abuse videos all by itself, but I still do not remember ever seeing the Children's Mass video I posted above being used here or even at Catholic Answers forum before. The circus music liturgy video from the basilica has been posted, because I posted it a few months ago, you know the video with the girls on roller skates and the giant lotus flower float used during the procession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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