Hi Howdy Hey

[arfink]

Hey, I like your avatar. :D

 

Thanks. I drew it. You want one?

[Basilisa Marie]

Hi there! :) 

 

So Mary stuff. Talking about Mary as mediator can mean a BUNCH of different things. When a friend prays for you, that friend is acting like a kind of mediator between you and Christ, right? And the fact that your friend is acting like a mediator doesn't mean you can't go to Christ yourself, right? Right. So that's one end of the spectrum. Another point on the spectrum is the idea that Mary is the Mediatrix of all Graces, the simplest explanation being that it's through her "yes" to God that allowed Christ to come into the world, so in a certain sense you can say that it's through her hands that we are given graces that come from Christ and his sacrifice. Mary as mediator definitely isn't meant to replace Christ, or to be on par with Christ, being that's obviously a huge theological problem. :)   And the title of Co-Redemptrix, again because it's through Mary's consent that Christ entered the world and because her own sufferings were so closely united with Christ's, it's another way to talk about the relationship between Christ and Mary (again, any Redemptrix talk is also supposed to make clear that Christ is the one and only redeemer, but maybe talk about how Mary participates in that redemption in a special way).  But really, any title of "Redemptrix" for Mary is basically experimental theology and in no way reflects "official" Church teaching at the moment.  It's an idea that still needs to be refined before it gets rejected outright, or a stamp of approval.   

Really, what's important is that Mary is the mother of God, she freely consented to God's plan, she's the immaculate conception, was assumed into Heaven, and is a wonderfully powerful saint to ask prayers from.  The rest is basically icing on the cake. :) 

[Basilisa Marie]

Oh and about the receiving the Precious Blood - there are a lot of Catholics (myself included) that are big fans of always making the chalice available to the "congregation" because I think it makes for a more complete (and completely obvious) symbol that point towards the reality of the mystery of the Eucharist.  It's a liturgical preference that's okay to have, as long as one acknowledges that the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ is fully present under both forms (aka "species"), and acknowledges that it's a perfectly legitimate practice to only offer the Body ("bread") to those present (only the priest has to consume both, technically). 

 

Plus I think offering the Blood to the congregation is an easy way for Catholics with concerns about Celiac's and gluten to still receive communion without making an unnecessary big deal about things. There's lots of good reasons for both.  But I know there's also good reasons for just offering the Body - I think I remember reading about a bishop in Arizona decided to withhold the chalice from the people as an act of solidarity with those Catholic groups who cannot afford any more wine than that which is absolutely necessary for the sacrament to be valid. I'm sure there are others, too.  But yeah.  

[Seven77]

AugustineA,

 

 

There was a point in my life when I also questioned whether or not Marian devotion could be taken too far. I understood that Our Lady was the Mother of God and had a great love for her already, but I didn't understand exactly how she could be the Queen of Heaven. And then I went to Lourdes.

 

In Lourdes, I understood that wherever the mother is, there is the Son, and vice versa. She does not exalt herself, it is Christ her Son who has exalted her. And Our Lady is all about making Christ exalted. Also, the Lord has told us that the humble shall be lifted high… among mere mortals, Our Lady was the most humble, so therefore she's the most exalted among mere mortals.

 

Later, I read True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Monfort. I think you should find this book right away, read it prayerfully, and make the consecration at the end of it. Reading this book is life-changing.

 

About Our Lady being the Mediatrix of All Grace: Jesus Christ is the source of every grace, Jesus Christ comes to us through Mary, his mother, therefore, every grace comes to us through Mary. About Our Lady being Advocate: she simply bears the same last name as her spouse, the Holy Spirit.

[Selah]

The only way that the worship (note, not in a sense of latria) of the Mother of God could be taken too far, is if we believed that she is of the same essence as the Holy Trinity. If we treated Her the same way we did the Persons of the Holy Trinity, then it would be a problem. As Apotheon states, She remains "heteroousios" (of a different essence from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and so She, while being Deified through Theosis, is not part of the Holy Trinity, but She does share in the uncreated energies of God. All praise given to Her, then, is due, as long as we do not equate Her with the Holy Trinity. 

 

When you really step back and think of it, or take the time to meditate on it, it truley makes sense why the Theotokos is so worthy of honor and glory, because She, without corruption, gave birth to God the Son. She held the God of the Universe in Her womb. How people can give that a passing "meh" is beyond me (not that anyone here is, it's just a general statement).

Edited September 9, 2013 by Selah

[AugustineA]

Here I go using the multiquote feature. 

 

'Allo.

 

Hi. :)

 

Wazzup bro. I'm a little bit of a basket case too. But u gotta keep wit it.

 

O no, I'm a basket case and studying clinical psychology. Maybe that explains it.. Anyways, thanks lol.

 

Phatmass'll bring you back into the fold.

 

Or rather, God will.

 

Welcome!

 

Thank you. :) Yeah it.. seems to be pretty beneficial for Catholics.

 

Thanks. I drew it. You want one?

 

Yes! please!  :dance:

 

Hi there! :)

 

So Mary stuff. Talking about Mary as mediator can mean a BUNCH of different things. When a friend prays for you, that friend is acting like a kind of mediator between you and Christ, right? And the fact that your friend is acting like a mediator doesn't mean you can't go to Christ yourself, right? Right. So that's one end of the spectrum. Another point on the spectrum is the idea that Mary is the Mediatrix of all Graces, the simplest explanation being that it's through her "yes" to God that allowed Christ to come into the world, so in a certain sense you can say that it's through her hands that we are given graces that come from Christ and his sacrifice. Mary as mediator definitely isn't meant to replace Christ, or to be on par with Christ, being that's obviously a huge theological problem. :)   And the title of Co-Redemptrix, again because it's through Mary's consent that Christ entered the world and because her own sufferings were so closely united with Christ's, it's another way to talk about the relationship between Christ and Mary (again, any Redemptrix talk is also supposed to make clear that Christ is the one and only redeemer, but maybe talk about how Mary participates in that redemption in a special way).  But really, any title of "Redemptrix" for Mary is basically experimental theology and in no way reflects "official" Church teaching at the moment.  It's an idea that still needs to be refined before it gets rejected outright, or a stamp of approval.   

Really, what's important is that Mary is the mother of God, she freely consented to God's plan, she's the immaculate conception, was assumed into Heaven, and is a wonderfully powerful saint to ask prayers from.  The rest is basically icing on the cake. :)

 

Okay, those make sense. I don't mean to be contentious, but may I ask what about the apostles and Joseph. Didn't they also say yes to God's plan and spread the Gospel so we could be saved. Given, none of them gave birth to the Messiah. So it isn't a perfect comparison. 

 

Oh and about the receiving the Precious Blood - there are a lot of Catholics (myself included) that are big fans of always making the chalice available to the "congregation" because I think it makes for a more complete (and completely obvious) symbol that point towards the reality of the mystery of the Eucharist.  It's a liturgical preference that's okay to have, as long as one acknowledges that the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ is fully present under both forms (aka "species"), and acknowledges that it's a perfectly legitimate practice to only offer the Body ("bread") to those present (only the priest has to consume both, technically). 

 

Plus I think offering the Blood to the congregation is an easy way for Catholics with concerns about Celiac's and gluten to still receive communion without making an unnecessary big deal about things. There's lots of good reasons for both.  But I know there's also good reasons for just offering the Body - I think I remember reading about a bishop in Arizona decided to withhold the chalice from the people as an act of solidarity with those Catholic groups who cannot afford any more wine than that which is absolutely necessary for the sacrament to be valid. I'm sure there are others, too.  But yeah.  

 

We're pretty much on the same page here. I wish it were more common. Thanks for taking the time to write these response btw.

 

AugustineA,

 

 

There was a point in my life when I also questioned whether or not Marian devotion could be taken too far. I understood that Our Lady was the Mother of God and had a great love for her already, but I didn't understand exactly how she could be the Queen of Heaven. And then I went to Lourdes.

 

In Lourdes, I understood that wherever the mother is, there is the Son, and vice versa. She does not exalt herself, it is Christ her Son who has exalted her. And Our Lady is all about making Christ exalted. Also, the Lord has told us that the humble shall be lifted high… among mere mortals, Our Lady was the most humble, so therefore she's the most exalted among mere mortals.

 

Later, I read True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Monfort. I think you should find this book right away, read it prayerfully, and make the consecration at the end of it. Reading this book is life-changing.

 

About Our Lady being the Mediatrix of All Grace: Jesus Christ is the source of every grace, Jesus Christ comes to us through Mary, his mother, therefore, every grace comes to us through Mary. About Our Lady being Advocate: she simply bears the same last name as her spouse, the Holy Spirit.

 

Hm. I was meaning to read St. Louis de Montfort a long time ago, along with Imitation of Christ. I wish I could respond more genuinely to how you relate to Mary. It's still something I'm working on. Thanks for recommending that though. 

 

The only way that the worship (note, not in a sense of latria) of the Mother of God could be taken too far, is if we believed that she is of the same essence as the Holy Trinity. If we treated Her the same way we did the Persons of the Holy Trinity, then it would be a problem. As Apotheon states, She remains "heteroousios" (of a different essence from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and so She, while being Deified through Theosis, is not part of the Holy Trinity, but She does share in the uncreated energies of God. All praise given to Her, then, is due, as long as we do not equate Her with the Holy Trinity. 

 

When you really step back and think of it, or take the time to meditate on it, it truley makes sense why the Theotokos is so worthy of honor and glory, because She, without corruption, gave birth to God the Son. She held the God of the Universe in Her womb. How people can give that a passing "meh" is beyond me (not that anyone here is, it's just a general statement).

 

I was reading your response and thought, hey I wonder if they know anything about Orthodoxy, since you noted the uncreated energies of God. And then I saw your religion haha. Awesome. See I agree in a sense. I've never been Meh about her. But that old protestant habit dies hard and pushes down those feelings of love towards her. It's interesting. I'll meditate on it for sure. 

 

 

[arfink]

What kind of avatar do you want? Or do you want a surprise monster/creature?

[Selah]

I was reading your response and thought, hey I wonder if they know anything about Orthodoxy, since you noted the uncreated energies of God. And then I saw your religion haha. amesome. 

 

 

Guilty as charged lol :p

[AugustineA]

What kind of avatar do you want? Or do you want a surprise monster/creature?

 

Random monster creature for sure

 

Guilty as charged lol :P

 

^__^

[Basilisa Marie]

 

 

Okay, those make sense. I don't mean to be contentious, but may I ask what about the apostles and Joseph. Didn't they also say yes to God's plan and spread the Gospel so we could be saved. Given, none of them gave birth to the Messiah. So it isn't a perfect comparison. 

 

It's okay. :)  Yeah, of course they did! That's why we also ask for their prayers and intercession.  But Mary has a very special relationship with Christ, because it was her explicit consent that allowed the Incarnation (and thus Salvation) to occur. It's because she consented to give birth to the Messiah, out of all other human beings, she's unique. She could have said no.  Mary's own will is so perfectly united to Christ's will, as exemplified in her consent to give birth to him, that we consider her own prayers to be especially helpful. She's closer to Christ than Joseph and the Apostles were. 

[AugustineA]

It's okay. :)  Yeah, of course they did! That's why we also ask for their prayers and intercession.  But Mary has a very special relationship with Christ, because it was her explicit consent that allowed the Incarnation (and thus Salvation) to occur. It's because she consented to give birth to the Messiah, out of all other human beings, she's unique. She could have said no.  Mary's own will is so perfectly united to Christ's will, as exemplified in her consent to give birth to him, that we consider her own prayers to be especially helpful. She's closer to Christ than Joseph and the Apostles were. 

 

You've got me there. She is unique in that sense. So did God choose Mary specifically because she would say yes? Or is that undefined within the Church.

[Winchester]

You are all too immersed in Hegelian dialectic to properly question it. 

[AugustineA]

You are all too immersed in Hegelian dialectic to properly question it. 

 

I've now spent ten minutes thinking about the validity of that statement, considering whether this thread counts as a dialectic on Mary. Whether the dialectic is my own developing thoughts on Mary. And I've come to the conclusion you mean I have internalized the dialectical model. Which may be true.. but I'm not certain because I'm really not certain of my thoughts on Mary. In fact, I think writing them on the forum crystallized them a bit... 

 

I'm also aware you may be trolling me.. I'm gonna go read.  :rain:

[arfink]

Given his username is Winchester, you can always assume that he is trolling you.

[Winchester]

I've now spent ten minutes thinking about the validity of that statement, considering whether this thread counts as a dialectic on Mary. Whether the dialectic is my own developing thoughts on Mary. And I've come to the conclusion you mean I have internalized the dialectical model. Which may be true.. but I'm not certain because I'm really not certain of my thoughts on Mary. In fact, I think writing them on the forum crystallized them a bit... 

 

I'm also aware you may be trolling me.. I'm gonna go read.  :rain:

You're incapable of escaping the trap. Everything you contemplate is through the lens of that paradigm. You cannot see the forest for the trees, and the forest is endless.