Studies Find Yelling At Children As Harmful As Hitting Them

[blazeingstar]

MarysLittleFlower hit the nail on the head: What she's talking about with "yelling" is what I'm talking about with "yelling". Raising your voice to get an unruly child's attention is of course okay. I'm referring to screaming tirades, name-calling, belittling, that sort of thing.

 

I think you're splitting hairs here.  Yelling is yelling.  When does yelling become a screaming tirade...because you can yell for a minute or two at one kid, but then what happens when you have 8...do you get 20 minutes of yelling?  Wouldn't that be a tirade?

 

We know abuse is wrong.  It's not abuse to slap a toddler's hand away from a hot stove.  Most people would say in a case of a very active not well listening toddler a stinging slap may be the more merciful thing to do than let the child get a 3rd degree burn.  It would be abuse to slap that same toddler because they were banging a block on the floor.

[havok579257]

You're alive!!!! I haven't seen you in forever!!!!

 

Of course. Did I ever say good parents never yell at their kids, or is that from the link? If it was me, I apologize. But remember that when I say "yelling" I don't mean raising your voice.

 

then don't say yelling if that's not what you mean.  your using a word that you think means something else but in reality does not mean what you think it means.  yelling is yelling and name calling is name calling.  if your talking about name calling then say so.  Cause your coming off that raising your voice to your child is similar to hitting your child.

[PhuturePriest]

I think you're splitting hairs here.  Yelling is yelling.  When does yelling become a screaming tirade...because you can yell for a minute or two at one kid, but then what happens when you have 8...do you get 20 minutes of yelling?  Wouldn't that be a tirade?

 

We know abuse is wrong.  It's not abuse to slap a toddler's hand away from a hot stove.  Most people would say in a case of a very active not well listening toddler a stinging slap may be the more merciful thing to do than let the child get a 3rd degree burn.  It would be abuse to slap that same toddler because they were banging a block on the floor.

 

If the purpose of yelling is to get a child's attention, why wouldn't just one "Listen to me!" get their attention? I'm not questioning this, I'm just curious about an experienced person's wisdom on this. Why is yelling for more than a sentence or two sometimes necessary? Is it necessary, or is it just you allowing yourself to escalate further out of frustration and anger? I'm not trying to make you angry, I'm just honestly asking a question.

 

I think that one thing to remember is I do actually have experience with frustrating kids. Not nearly as much as parents, but I've been doing martial arts for twelve years, and I have taught small children many times. It is incredibly frustrating when you're trying to teach them and all they do is look around at the walls and the floor, no matter how many times you tell them to pay attention. But I've never resorted to yelling, I just use physical discipline like using push-ups. It always works and makes them pay attention, at least for a while. When they stop paying attention again, they do more push-ups and I get their attention again.

 

Please don't hear what I'm NOT saying: I'm NOT saying "This is what all parents should do", or "This is how it's properly done, ladies and gentleman." Being a parent is different than being a teacher, because you have to deal with the child at all times of the day, whereas I only get an hour and a half to two hours of it. But that doesn't discredit the fact that I get frustrated with children as well. What I'm trying to say is that I can easily yell at them to get their attention (My black belts did it to me, and it worked). But I don't want to lead by fear. I want them to respect me and like me, and they can hardly like me if they see me as the uptight insane screaming guy, like I saw (And still see) my black belts as. My head black belt is a Vietnam veteran, and the way he sees it, if he isn't screaming in peoples' faces, it's not proper teaching. It is possible to be firm and get results without yelling. I'm not saying yelling is always inherently bad, as sometimes you need to use it to get a child's attention (As has been said by many others on the thread), and I'm sorry for implying that this isn't so. But my idea of what yelling is is not what most people's idea of what yelling is.

[PhuturePriest]

then don't say yelling if that's not what you mean.  your using a word that you think means something else but in reality does not mean what you think it means.  yelling is yelling and name calling is name calling.  if your talking about name calling then say so.  Cause your coming off that raising your voice to your child is similar to hitting your child.

 

That's what I think of when I hear the word "yelling", so it was an unintentional correlation between the two. I apologize for that.

[Nihil Obstat]

This thread reminds me of the old manliness thread from a couple years ago. :hehe:

[havok579257]

If the purpose of yelling is to get a child's attention, why wouldn't just one "Listen to me!" get their attention? I'm not questioning this, I'm just curious about an experienced person's wisdom on this. Why is yelling for more than a sentence or two sometimes necessary? Is it necessary, or is it just you allowing yourself to escalate further out of frustration and anger? I'm not trying to make you angry, I'm just honestly asking a question.

 

I think that one thing to remember is I do actually have experience with frustrating kids. Not nearly as much as parents, but I've been doing martial arts for twelve years, and I have taught small children many times. It is incredibly frustrating when you're trying to teach them and all they do is look around at the walls and the floor, no matter how many times you tell them to pay attention. But I've never resorted to yelling, I just use physical discipline like using push-ups. It always works and makes them pay attention, at least for a while. When they stop paying attention again, they do more push-ups and I get their attention again.

 

Please don't hear what I'm NOT saying: I'm NOT saying "This is what all parents should do", or "This is how it's properly done, ladies and gentleman." Being a parent is different than being a teacher, because you have to deal with the child at all times of the day, whereas I only get an hour and a half to two hours of it. But that doesn't discredit the fact that I get frustrated with children as well. What I'm trying to say is that I can easily yell at them to get their attention (My black belts did it to me, and it worked). But I don't want to lead by fear. I want them to respect me and like me, and they can hardly like me if they see me as the uptight insane screaming guy, like I saw (And still see) my black belts as. My head black belt is a Vietnam veteran, and the way he sees it, if he isn't screaming in peoples' faces, it's not proper teaching. It is possible to be firm and get results without yelling. I'm not saying yelling is always inherently bad, as sometimes you need to use it to get a child's attention (As has been said by many others on the thread), and I'm sorry for implying that this isn't so. But my idea of what yelling is is not what most people's idea of what yelling is.

 

 

Are you really asking when saying "Listen to me" one time will not get the childs attention?  Have you been around young children at all?  Not trying to sound mean but its a serious question since your thinking saying something to a child once will get their attention.  Some times you have to repeatedly yell to get a childs attention.  My sons jump on the couch.  I yell at them to stop.  They stop for all of 5 seconds, then I turn away and they do it again.  Rinse and repeat.  Children rarely listen the first time all the time or even most of the time at young ages.  If it was that easy parents would never be stressed out.  If all you had to do is say no one time, then parenting would be extremely easy.

 

Teaching children martial arts and having your own children are not the same thing, not even close.  If you have a child in class who just starts screaming and ranting and raving you can ignore them or the parent comes and takes over.  If your a parent who's child is screaming bloody murder in the store and running around you can't really ignore him or let someone else deal with him.  Also and maybe I am wrong here but how many children do you have who for no reason starts hitting other kids and then when you tell him to do push ups or whatever refuses to do it or ANYTHING you say.  Even refuses to leave the mat.  They just decide to lay their and go limp.  Then when you pick them up and move them they start hitting you and then run back into the middle of the class and lay their doing it all over again?  Instructing children for a few hours at most is completely different than being a parent 24/7, 365.  You know that no matter how unruly a child gets in 2 hours he is out of your hair where as a parent knows no matter how unruly a child is, you have to deal with it and are not able to pass him off to someone else.

 

I work as a medic.  I deal with children at work.  Although I deal with them for only a short while.  So if they are crying/screaming/hitting/whatever I know in an hour I will hand them off to someone else and move on.  As a parent, when my son has teeth coming in or is just having a bad day and is whinny and crying all day long I know I have to deal with that and can not pass him off.   Big difference there between the 2.   

[PhuturePriest]

This thread reminds me of the old manliness thread from a couple years ago. :hehe:

 

Phatmass had gone too long without one of these threads. I needed to do something. :P

[PhuturePriest]

Are you really asking when saying "Listen to me" one time will not get the childs attention?  Have you been around young children at all?  Not trying to sound mean but its a serious question since your thinking saying something to a child once will get their attention.  Some times you have to repeatedly yell to get a childs attention.  My sons jump on the couch.  I yell at them to stop.  They stop for all of 5 seconds, then I turn away and they do it again.  Rinse and repeat.  Children rarely listen the first time all the time or even most of the time at young ages.  If it was that easy parents would never be stressed out.  If all you had to do is say no one time, then parenting would be extremely easy.

 

Teaching children martial arts and having your own children are not the same thing, not even close.  If you have a child in class who just starts screaming and ranting and raving you can ignore them or the parent comes and takes over.  If your a parent who's child is screaming bloody murder in the store and running around you can't really ignore him or let someone else deal with him.  Also and maybe I am wrong here but how many children do you have who for no reason starts hitting other kids and then when you tell him to do push ups or whatever refuses to do it or ANYTHING you say.  Even refuses to leave the mat.  They just decide to lay their and go limp.  Then when you pick them up and move them they start hitting you and then run back into the middle of the class and lay their doing it all over again?  Instructing children for a few hours at most is completely different than being a parent 24/7, 365.  You know that no matter how unruly a child gets in 2 hours he is out of your hair where as a parent knows no matter how unruly a child is, you have to deal with it and are not able to pass him off to someone else.

 

I work as a medic.  I deal with children at work.  Although I deal with them for only a short while.  So if they are crying/screaming/hitting/whatever I know in an hour I will hand them off to someone else and move on.  As a parent, when my son has teeth coming in or is just having a bad day and is whinny and crying all day long I know I have to deal with that and can not pass him off.   Big difference there between the 2.   

 

I mentioned several times that they are not equal to each other, so I'm not sure why there was a need to throw that in there.

 

Also, I can't just have a parent walk in and take care of it. The parents leave once class starts. Having parents there distracts the children even worse, so I don't like them being there.

 

And thanks for answering my question. I was just curious as to why you would need to yell more than once, and you answered. It makes sense.

[blazeingstar]

If the purpose of yelling is to get a child's attention, why wouldn't just one "Listen to me!" get their attention? I'm not questioning this, I'm just curious about an experienced person's wisdom on this. Why is yelling for more than a sentence or two sometimes necessary? Is it necessary, or is it just you allowing yourself to escalate further out of frustration and anger? I'm not trying to make you angry, I'm just honestly asking a question.

 

I think that one thing to remember is I do actually have experience with frustrating kids. Not nearly as much as parents, but I've been doing martial arts for twelve years, and I have taught small children many times. It is incredibly frustrating when you're trying to teach them and all they do is look around at the walls and the floor, no matter how many times you tell them to pay attention. But I've never resorted to yelling, I just use physical discipline like using push-ups. It always works and makes them pay attention, at least for a while. When they stop paying attention again, they do more push-ups and I get their attention again.

 

Please don't hear what I'm NOT saying: I'm NOT saying "This is what all parents should do", or "This is how it's properly done, ladies and gentleman." Being a parent is different than being a teacher, because you have to deal with the child at all times of the day, whereas I only get an hour and a half to two hours of it. But that doesn't discredit the fact that I get frustrated with children as well. What I'm trying to say is that I can easily yell at them to get their attention (My black belts did it to me, and it worked). But I don't want to lead by fear. I want them to respect me and like me, and they can hardly like me if they see me as the uptight insane screaming guy, like I saw (And still see) my black belts as. My head black belt is a Vietnam veteran, and the way he sees it, if he isn't screaming in peoples' faces, it's not proper teaching. It is possible to be firm and get results without yelling. I'm not saying yelling is always inherently bad, as sometimes you need to use it to get a child's attention (As has been said by many others on the thread), and I'm sorry for implying that this isn't so. But my idea of what yelling is is not what most people's idea of what yelling is.

 

Teaching children in a large open room, while you have several other instructors and their parents 40 feet away.  To compare that to parenting is laughable.  Of course you shouldn't yell.

 

There are plenty of times in parenting when yelling is appropriate....even shaming...like when my brothers were playing with the BB gun and killed a squirrel by accident.  It was right for my dad to be furious and tell them they were cowards and buillies.

 

The article is very poorly written and andtedotial.  Of course calling a child stupid is bad.  But the correlation is not causation.  Is it that yelled-at children have lower self esteem and all that rainbow hippie stuff....or just maybe that children who are difficult with their parents also present a problem at school, too?    My friend with 3 daughters has one who will cry at the thought of disobedience, one who could be beaten to a pulp before she'd even fake caring (which he never would do) and a third who did dumb things but responded well to logic.  Kids come with their own personalities.

[PhuturePriest]

Teaching children in a large open room, while you have several other instructors and their parents 40 feet away.  To compare that to parenting is laughable.  Of course you shouldn't yell.

 

There are plenty of times in parenting when yelling is appropriate....even shaming...like when my brothers were playing with the BB gun and killed a squirrel by accident.  It was right for my dad to be furious and tell them they were cowards and buillies.

 

The article is very poorly written and andtedotial.  Of course calling a child stupid is bad.  But the correlation is not causation.  Is it that yelled-at children have lower self esteem and all that rainbow hippie stuff....or just maybe that children who are difficult with their parents also present a problem at school, too?    My friend with 3 daughters has one who will cry at the thought of disobedience, one who could be beaten to a pulp before she'd even fake caring (which he never would do) and a third who did dumb things but responded well to logic.  Kids come with their own personalities.

 

It's usually just me, actually. There are other instructors, but they are far away teaching other students. It is a large open room, as you say.

 

And no, I shouldn't yell. But that doesn't stop every black belt I've never known from screaming in little kids' faces. Now do you see why I resist the idea of yelling? I've had a lot of bad experiences with it, and it's difficult for me to imagine yelling at people I love, especially my wife and kids.

[blazeingstar]

It's usually just me, actually. There are other instructors, but they are far away teaching other students. It is a large open room, as you say.

 

And no, I shouldn't yell. But that doesn't stop every black belt I've never known from screaming in little kids' faces. Now do you see why I resist the idea of yelling? I've had a lot of bad experiences with it, and it's difficult for me to imagine yelling at people I love, especially my wife and kids.

 

Not really.  There is a time and a place to be yelling/scary.  Wife...that's a bit different, but as far as kids, sometimes it is good to put the fear of God in them at times...not all the time, but sometimes appropriate

[PhuturePriest]

Not really.  There is a time and a place to be yelling/scary.  Wife...that's a bit different, but as far as kids, sometimes it is good to put the fear of God in them at times...not all the time, but sometimes appropriate

 

I agree.

 

What a shame... four pages and the issue dies away. I've lost my touch... :sad:

[Semper Catholic]

Some people respond better to negative reinforcement

 

Other respond better to positive reinforcement.

 

This comes down to knowing your kid (teacher or parent) and what works best.

 

As far as the military thing I can tell you  yelling is only necessary when a kid knows he's doing something wrong and isbeing a dirtbag. Otherwise I tell all my small unit leaders they need to be teachers not yellers. We get so many kids who come out of boot afraid to make decisions because they're afraid to be wrong and get chewed out. Takes us months to deprogram them and turn them into critical decision makers

[Kateri89]

I don't know, my parents yelled at me and occasionally hit me too and I think I turned out pretty good :). I had a full-time job and my own car at 20 and moved out at 21. I have a good relationship with my parents so no worries there. I'm not doling out any parenting advice since I'm not a parent. Just reflecting on the successfulness of my upbringing.

[MeteorShower]

I am not a parent, so I honestly don't mean to cause any offence or come across as 'high-and-mighty' if anyone interprets any of my comments in that way. However, I do have parents, so I guess I can offer my two cents from that perspective.

 

Firstly, as many have already said, it depends on the situation. I have no doubt that being a parent is extremely stressful. Having worked with kids in the past, I know that it's easy to get impatient. Sometimes people are just having a bad day and that's ok. However, I know from experience that occasionally some parents can get so angry that they will shout and scream at the child, call them names, threaten them, swear at them, etc. OBVIOUSLY, most parents will not do this. I am assuming that when the article talks about "yelling" at a child, they are referring to the extreme cases, and probably consider this behaviour harmful because it can have severe emotional and mental effects on the child.

 

My interpretation of this could be entirely incorrect, however, so I apologize if this makes no sense.

 

Secondly, I suppose different children will be affected by this in different ways. Factors such as the personality of the child or the frequency of these incidents would likely play a role on any long-term effects.