Against The Law In California To Obtain Ssa Therapy!

[Basilisa Marie]

The problem isn't about adults wanting or not wanting to get rid of their "gayness" or whatever.  The problem is that we're talking about CHILDREN, and parents who take their children to so-called doctors not to learn tools to deal with their feelings, but to try and get rid of their feelings and develop other feelings in their place.  It's tantamount to parents who refuse medical treatment for their children in favor of 'faith-based' methods. It's one thing if an adult wants to only seek faith-based treatments, or wants to do 'conversion therapy." It's entirely different when we're talking about the welfare of children. 

[Didacus]

Why is everyone assuming that the parents have the worst intent?

[Ice_nine]

Why is everyone assuming that the parents have the worst intent?

 

probs cause there's a good number of parents who'd flip the hell out if their child was caught being all gay like or admitted to being gay and just want to make it go away with any band-aid approach they can find. There are reparative therapies that are really horrible and not helpful.

 

 

 

 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Why is everyone assuming that the parents have the worst intent?

 

Because their intentions don't matter for the most part. Parents shouldn't try to get Steven to reject his sexual preferences/urges unless they could lead him to harm others or himself. If Steven gets turned on by killing puppies, for example, that might be worth looking into.

Edited September 3, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Aloysius]

now of course, that's where we disagree: I do believe parents should promote chastity and the Church's teachings on sexual morality.  They should not try to pressure them into 'changing into heterosexual' by any means, and they should always love their children even if their children do end up choosing the active homosexual lifestyle, but lovingly promoting chastity is important in raising one's children as Catholics.  Embracing homosexual sex is not the only option for a child with an attraction to the same sex to grow and lead a fulfilling life, just as embracing all sexual urges is not the only option for a heterosexual child growing up.  there is nothing wrong with chastity, or with celibacy, when they are properly grown into.  and there is nothing wrong with promoting a child's self conception of themselves that doesn't define themselves by a deterministic dogma that they are inherently "homosexual", rather than acknowledging that this is their dominant sexual attractions at that moment, but that sexuality for everyone is a broad spectrum and they should be open to the way they will grow and develop in their lives open to other possibilities, while they strive for chastity.

 

dogmatic gay determinism is also harmful to children growing up... it is extremely prevalent in our society though in a way that cannot be avoided--as soon as someone has publicly 'outed' themselves in any way, they are strongly pressured to define themselves exclusively that way.  there's no room made for other possibilities.

 

This kind of deterministic attitude towards homosexual attractions was not present in, say, ancient Greek or ancient Roman societies, or actually in many small scale societies, I'd say pretty much most of human history in most cultures you don't see this kind of dogmatic gay determinism.  societies had more of a tendency to make a place for homosexual actions alongside heterosexual actions, the homosexual actions not making one into some deterministically exclusively homosexual person.  strangely enough, this kind of homosexual determinism is in many ways an unintended consequence of Christianity on society, to the point where our culture now even tries to create cultural institutions of lifelong monogamy for homosexuals.

 

as something to illustrate what I'm trying to say here: there was a gay anthropologist who was doing work with a native american tribe, and he was asked why he wasn't doing anything with the women and he admitted to liking men, and he was introduced to the others in that tribe who liked men and, well, he 'got acquainted' with them let's say.... but they all found it strange and wanted to know why he wouldn't also take a wife.

[Basilisa Marie]

Why is everyone assuming that the parents have the worst intent?

 

Because the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  The message a kid gets from conversion therapy is "You are different, you are evil, you need to be fixed."  Do you know how many children and teenagers ALREADY have huge issues with fitting in and figuring out who they are?  I'm not saying that parents should encourage their child to engage in same sex relationships.  I'm saying that this kind of practice only results in children questioning their human dignity.  Instead, it's much more productive for parents to help children come to terms with their feelings, to know that they are not defined by them.  Do you really think kids who attend conversion therapy do so because when they told their parents about their homosexual feelings, their parents responded in a loving manner that affirmed their dignity, that affirmed that their parents loved them no matter what, that God loves them? Or that they even had enough courage to tell their parents themselves in the first place?  There's no way anything good comes out of children attending gay conversion therapy. 

[CrossCuT]

This might not be SSA related, but I feel like this can still fit into conforming to what we expect out of gender roles.

 

http://www.today.com/moms/gender-creative-boy-8C11066146

 

The little boy CJ prefers female toys and clothes and his parents are allowing him to grow up this way. They do not say "Thats not what boys do/wear" and force him to change. They are allowing him dress the way he wants and play with the female toys that he wants. Its not usual (from what I am aware...maybe it is but it isnt spoken of often) but they havent sent him into therapy or anything of the like. 

They also have an older boy who conforms to the normal masculine identity so its interesting that two boys raised in the same environment chose very different identities in regards to their gender. 

[Aloysius]

ugh I don't like that kind of parenting either.  there's nothing wrong with a little boy who wants to play with barbies or whatever, but the way they've placed that into the discourse of life-long gender identity has most certainly influenced their child, they're no more "letting their child make their own decisions" than a parent who raises them by teaching them male gender roles.  by indulging and fostering that child's activities in his youth, they've solidified it and not allowed for it to possibly be just a stage.

 

I saw a very interesting documentary where parents had taken that approach and the kid embraced it, and was always fighting to try to get to be allowed to start hormone treatments for a sex change when he was old enough, but then just when he was finally getting to the point where the doctors were going to allow it he started doubting it and changing his mind and revealing that at that point he felt pressured to go in that direction because it had become what was expected.  I don't know what eventually happened in that situation, but whatever did I found that moment revelatory of how this kind of parenting had actually been its own kind of pressuring, transforming childhood phases into damaging lifelong identity-defining trends. but I think it's wholly unwise to indulge "gender non-comformity" for children on the basis of them liking some so-called "girly" things like barbies when they're young.  it's one thing to allow play with barbies, and not to freak out if there's playful dress up, it's quite another thing to foster that to the point of encouraging that playful dress-up to turn into their actual real life wardrobe and to raise them to foster that as the defining of their lifelong identity.

 

anyway, it's definitely related, but not quite the same I think.

[CrossCuT]

I can see what youre saying. Its difficult to judge those things when the child is so young. 

But how do we judge gender at all? Is his version wrong because it doesnt conform to society? 

On the one hand, I am 100% cool with allowing the child to do what he wants without the parents sending him into therapy or preventing him from expressing his interests, but at the same time, like you suggested, are they in a reverse way still doing the same thing? Instead of pushing masculine specific identity on him are they pushing a gender non-conformity identity on him?

[Didacus]

(snip)

.  Instead, it's much more productive for parents to help children come to terms with their feelings, to know that they are not defined by them.   

 

 

(snip)

There's no way anything good comes out of children attending gay conversion therapy. 

 

What makes you think the productive approach above is not part of therapy itself?  Why would you assume parents, and even therapists wouldn't have this aspart of their respective response to the teenage child?

 

 

 

The second statement I've snipped out tells me there really isn't much point in continuing (or possibility of) any constructive conversation with you in this matter whatsover. 

[Didacus]

OK - one thing about being a parent, is that IT IS YOUR GOAL TO SET LIFE LONG TRENDS IN YOUR CHILDREN. 

 

Don't steal, get a job, be loving, whatever....

If we only let the child decide in and of themselves what they want to do, or become, they what chance do they have of becoming a good person at all?  Regardless is the subject matter is sex, honesty, respecting life or whatever.

[Era Might]

OK - one thing about being a parent, is that IT IS YOUR GOAL TO SET LIFE LONG TRENDS IN YOUR CHILDREN. 

 

Don't steal, get a job, be loving, whatever....

If we only let the child decide in and of themselves what they want to do, or become, they what chance do they have of becoming a good person at all?  Regardless is the subject matter is sex, honesty, respecting life or whatever.

 

A useful analogy here is scrupulosity. Young people, particularly young converts who may have an awkard or overzealous conversion to some religion, have to deal with it in the context of family life that may be stifling, unhelpful, etc. Well-meaning parents don't necessarily cure scrupulosity, they could exacerbate it. Young adulthood is awkward in lots of families. Those life lessons you mention, "Don't steal," "Get a job," are pretty broad, and don't mean much to a young adult until they get into the thick of things and have to figure their way through platitudes like "get a job." Working at Burger King doesn't necessarily ennoble a young person who has no idea what the future means for them. It's the same with something like homosexuality, or other issues that a young person could face.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Era Might

[Papist]

What is it about the reparative therapy that is abusive to a child? And and the same time not be abusive to an adult. So we are to make law to deny someone who desires such therapy....while the physiologicly correct are telling him to embrace being gay b/c gay is who he is. Talk about abuse.

 

People are born with high anxiety problems. So we should deny them therapy until they are 18 regardless if they desire the therapy? 

[Papist]

Can anyone point out to examples of people harmed by NARTH's therapy?

 

 

Of what is obvious, SSA can be treated and even cured.  Why would we remove this possibility from anyone?

My thought is that even if there was a magical pill that could cure 100% of SSA, pro-gays would still lobby against it, because it is admitting their condition is not the desirable condition.

 

Anyone?

[Aloysius]

Therapists associated with NARTH and Exodus were accused of sexually assaulting clients or engaging in questionable therapy practices. Among them were Alan Downing, the lead therapist of JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality), who made his patients strip and touch themselves in front of a mirror; NARTH member Christopher Austin, who was convicted of “unlawfully, intentionally and knowingly caus[ing] penetration of” a client; and Exodus-affiliated Mike Jones, who asked a patient to take off his shirt and do push-ups for him.

The movement also suffered several high-profile defections. John Evans, who had founded the first ex-gay ministry outside of San Francisco, renounced change therapy when a friend committed suicide after failing to become heterosexual. Former ex-gay Peterson Toscano, who was involved in the movement for 17 years, founded Beyond Ex-Gay, an online community for “ex-gay survivors.” In 2007, Exodus co-founder Michael Bussee apologized for his role in starting the organization.

http://prospect.org/article/my-so-called-ex-gay-life

 

most ex-gay survivor stories you'll find online are of people who left the ex-gay movement to return to a homosexual lifestyle, but I do know personally people who have left the ex-gay movement for a chaste lifestyle... such people are far less vocal, understandably.