Nihil Obstat Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I think a more radical form of community would make bishops more relevant, not less (though it would change the way in which they are relevant). I would love to see a model where bishops do not have fixed homes, but live from home to home with their people. That might even work for priests in general. One of the beautiful things about St. Paul's letters is the moral and spiritual power he wields, because his authority is communal and personal rather than legal, structural, etc. But that's a topic for another thread. Iunno... Strikes me as a little bit ignoble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 Iunno... Strikes me as a little bit ignoble. I think the priesthood needs to be de-professionalized and recovered as an Apostolic ministry. St. Paul built tents, was shipwrecked, whipped, imprisoned. I don't think priests and bishops should be living a life of nobility. And they should live and die with their people (literally and figuratively). If they want something more "noble," then I think they should be allowed to hold jobs and exercise their priestly ministry much like married deacons exercise theirs, in addition to their personal obligations, paying their own way. It would solve a lot of problems of clericalism, as well as reinvigorate the priesthood with the moral and spiritual power it should possess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Era, I'm not sure where you live, but many of the priests in my diocese do indeed lead de-professionalized lives. A good number of our parishes are on reserves and other small towns where the priests certainly know the people. Our bishop also makes an effort to visit every church in the diocese and meet his flock. The priest is noble by his own priesthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Is there an alternative to parishes? Seems all Catholic and Orthodox churches are structured with dioceses and parishes... That is because parishes go back to the beginnings of the Church, that is, to the moment when there were more Christians in a given location than could be accomodated at the Eucharist celebrated by the bishop in his own Church (κυÏιακη οικια). The presbyters (i.e., priests) as the co-workers of the bishop extended his (i.e., the bishop's) authority to those who lived close to the smaller houses of worship (i.e., Christian παÏοικια) dispersed throughout the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 sitting in classes with seminarians has given me the opinion that they need less philosophy and more psychology, or even business and human resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 sitting in classes with seminarians has given me the opinion that they need less philosophy and more psychology, or even business and human resources. I second this. The priests I know who had some kind of "life experience," whether it be a stint in the military, a hefty conversion story, or whatever, tend to have more of those people skills. Even at my home parish now, we have a pastor on his first assignment as the head honcho after only a spending a year as an assistant, and while he's very smart and has lots of talents, he's in desperate need of some interpersonal skills. We know it'll come with time and experience, but in the meantime it can sometimes get frustrating. I tend to think priests deserve respect (or an air of "nobility" or whatever, I don't like the word "nobility" because it sounds completely divorced from the messiness of poverty) not just because they're simply priests, but because of what they do - devote their whole lives to the well being of the community they serve. You get respect by doing a good job, not by simply existing. It's not unlike the problem with blowing up a kid's self esteem so he or she will succeed before he or she has actually succeeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I think the priesthood needs to be de-professionalized and recovered as an Apostolic ministry. St. Paul built tents, was shipwrecked, whipped, imprisoned. I don't think priests and bishops should be living a life of nobility. And they should live and die with their people (literally and figuratively). If they want something more "noble," then I think they should be allowed to hold jobs and exercise their priestly ministry much like married deacons exercise theirs, in addition to their personal obligations, paying their own way. It would solve a lot of problems of clericalism, as well as reinvigorate the priesthood with the moral and spiritual power it should possess. I agree, except I don't think priests should hold outside jobs. There's too much of a shortage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 sitting in classes with seminarians has given me the opinion that they need less philosophy and more psychology, or even business and human resources. PROPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappie Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 I think the priesthood needs to be de-professionalized and recovered as an Apostolic ministry. St. Paul built tents, was shipwrecked, whipped, imprisoned. I don't think priests and bishops should be living a life of nobility. And they should live and die with their people (literally and figuratively). If they want something more "noble," then I think they should be allowed to hold jobs and exercise their priestly ministry much like married deacons exercise theirs, in addition to their personal obligations, paying their own way. It would solve a lot of problems of clericalism, as well as reinvigorate the priesthood with the moral and spiritual power it should possess. Everyone's an expert with a solution....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappie Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 sitting in classes with seminarians has given me the opinion that they need less philosophy and more psychology, or even business and human resources. Sorry I don't mean to be rude, but that is a silly comment. Half the reason there is so much "muddle-headed" thinking today in the area especially of moral theology is a lack of philosophical training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappie Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Vatican II reminded all priests of their duties within a parish. These duties included leading the people to have a wider sense of church life than the parish: ‘parish priests and their assistants should carry out their work of teaching, sanctifying and governing in such a way that the faithful and the parish communities may feel they are truly members both of the diocese and the universal Church. They should therefore collaborate both with other parish priests and those priests exercising a pastoral function in the district.’ (Vat II, Christus dominus, #30 in Flanery). Thus the Council Fathers highlighted the interconnectedness of the communities of the faithful in parishes. Since ‘Parish priests are in a special sense collaborators with the bishop.’ (Christus dominus #30) there is an essential relationship between the parish communities and the diocesan community. Parishes in some manner ‘represent the visible Church constituted throughout the world.’ (Vat II Sacrosanctum concilium #40) Parishes are in some ways images of the Church. Priests ‘gather the family of God......and lead it to Christ.’ (Vat II Presbyterium ordinis #6). The whole purpose of their authority is to build up the Body of Christ. Collaborative ministry by priests and the lay faithful is an essential part of parish life. The decree on the Apostolate of the Laity said: ‘The laity should develop the habit of working in the parish in close union with their priests...the laity will continuously cultivate the ‘feeling of the diocese’, of which the parish is a kind of cell; they will always be ready on the invitation of their bishop to make their own contribution to diocesan undertakings.’ (Vat II Apostolicam actuositatem #777-778). The Decree on the Pastoral Office of Bishops pointed out that ‘the parish exists solely for the good of souls.’ (Vat II Christus dominus #31 ) Both Vatican II and the post Vatican documents consistently taught the ‘good of souls’ is the principle for making decisions about parishes. These souls, that the bishop is concerned with, are not just the souls of parishioners in parishes, but include all those in the diocese. The positive and desirable increase in the contribution of the laity to the pastoral and liturgical life of the Church has been a beneficial consequence of the ecclesiology of Vatican II and is reflected in canon law. A parish is described in Canon 515 as ‘a certain community of Christ's faithful stably established within a particular Church, whose pastoral care, under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, is entrusted to a parish priest as its proper pastor.’ The parish priest is the spiritual head of the parish and so canon519 states: ‘The parish priest is the proper pastor of the parish entrusted to him. He exercises the pastoral care of the community entrusted to him under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, whose ministry of Christ he is called to share, so that for this community he may carry out the offices of teaching, sanctifying and ruling with the cooperation of other priests or deacons and with the assistance of lay members of Christ's faithful, in accordance with the law.’ A parish then is part of a broader community of the Church: Canon 529 §2 The parish priest is to recognise and promote the specific role which the lay members of Christ's faithful have in the mission of the Church, fostering their associations which have religious purposes. He is to cooperate with his proper Bishop and with the presbyterium of the diocese. Moreover, he is to endeavour to ensure that the faithful are concerned for the community of the parish, that they feel themselves to be members both of the diocese and of the universal Church, and that they take part in and sustain works which promote this community. The Catholic Church is a communion of local Eucharistic communities not a federation of community churches. I could go on, after 30 years working in all sorts of parishes, but I think that's all ATM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 25, 2013 Author Share Posted August 25, 2013 Everyone's an expert with a solution....................... No, everyone's a person with an experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 No, everyone's a person with an experience. True, Jimi Hendrix had an experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContemporaryCaflicCrusader Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130766-the-dilbertless-chronicles-our-youth-ministry-team/ These were my thoughts on my parish when I tried to resign from Youth ministry a a couple weeks ago (They wouldn't let me). Parishes are very cliquey and unChristlike in so many ways it's unreal. Our mass is a circus during the school year and the place is a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130766-the-dilbertless-chronicles-our-youth-ministry-team/ These were my thoughts on my parish when I tried to resign from Youth ministry a a couple weeks ago (They wouldn't let me). Parishes are very cliquey and unChristlike in so many ways it's unreal. Our mass is a circus during the school year and the place is a mess. I think people can often be cliquey and unchristlike, but I wouldn't blame the parish system for that. Poor theological education and a poor prayer life in the parish could be to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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