Era Might Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts / experience on the parish system. I'm not a fan of the parish system for a number of reasons, partly because I don't like large-scale institutions, and partly because I don't like the "social club" aspect. But I'm also a big believer that the Gospel not individualism, but always rooted in community and guided by the law of love. I'd be curious to hear from some of you who may have a lot of experience in the parish system. How do you think it functions in terms of welcoming people who are not "in the clique" or who aren't interested in coffee and donuts after Mass, or who aren't 72 years old, or who don't have anything in common with the Youth Group crowd, etc. I think St. Paul's letters in the New Testament provide a beautiful model of the pains and joys of community life, and I think it is something that is lost in the parish system, though perhaps it can be found in the midst of the parish in ways other than joining the social club. I think the emergence of non-parish communities is relevant here as well (if you have experience in those you can share that as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I like the parish system, but not the way it exists in the modern Church. Parishes are way too big, and should be broken up into much smaller communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I think you're thinking too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 I think you're thinking too much. Huh? I'm simply asking about people's experiences in parish life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 Pope Benedict had some relevant comments in a meeting with the ecclesial movements and new communities. He makes a connection between Christian sonship and the ability to co-create in the world we live in, unlike slaves. I think that is very relevant to what it means to be a Christian community, and whether the parish model accomplishes that. Though as the Pope stresses, there must always be that fundamental bond of community that is not separatist...but, in my opinion, it does not have to be conformist either. The appeal of Protestant churches has much to do with the different way of living Christian community. I think it's a very important topic, because the parish model is not the only way, even within Catholicism. Sacred Scripture, on the other hand, connects the concept of freedom with that of sonship. St Paul says: "You did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship", through which we cry, ""Abba! Father!'" (Rom 8: 15). What does this mean? St Paul presupposes the social system of the ancient world in which slaves existed. They owned nothing, so they could not be involved in the proper development of things. Co-respectively, there were sons who were also heirs and were therefore concerned with the preservation and good administration of their property or the preservation of the State. Since they were free, they also had responsibility Leaving aside the sociological background of that time, the principle still holds true: freedom and responsibility go hand in hand. True freedom is demonstrated in responsibility, in a way of behaving in which one takes upon oneself a shared responsibility for the world, for oneself and for others. The son, to whom things belong and who, consequently, does not let them be destroyed, is free. All the worldly responsibilities of which we have spoken are nevertheless partial responsibilities for a specific area, a specific State, etc. The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, makes us sons and daughters of God. He involves us in the same responsibility that God has for his world, for the whole of humanity. He teaches us to look at the world, others and ourselves with God's eyes. We do not do good as slaves who are not free to act otherwise, but we do it because we are personally responsible for the world; because we love truth and goodness, because we love God himself and therefore, also his creatures. This is the true freedom to which the Holy Spirit wants to lead us. The Ecclesial Movements want to and must be schools of freedom, of this true freedom. Let us learn in them this true freedom, not the freedom of slaves that aims to cut itself a slice of the cake that belongs to everyone even if this means that some do not get any. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20060603_veglia-pentecoste_en.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I'm not sure why the parish system would be incompatible with smaller communities. I just went Thursday night to the "Blue Jacket Night" in Lafayette. It's a bunch of 20- and 30-somethings from the St. Boniface parish who get together once a week (when the drinks are $7 instead of $9). Most of them are single, but not all. If I weren't a parishioner at St. Boniface, I might not know about it. (Although people from the campus ministry come, too.) Out of the parish, smaller groups can develop. And they're a good thing. It's not like, just because the 20- and 30-somethings all hang out together, they're hostile to the 70-somethings in the parish. We just find the people we have the most in common with and share our experience of the faith with them. And there are still plenty of occasions for us to share with people who are different from us. So...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I'm not sure why the parish system would be incompatible with smaller communities. I just went Thursday night to the "Blue Jacket Night" in Lafayette. It's a bunch of 20- and 30-somethings from the St. Boniface parish who get together once a week (when the drinks are $7 instead of $9). Most of them are single, but not all. If I weren't a parishioner at St. Boniface, I might not know about it. (Although people from the campus ministry come, too.) Out of the parish, smaller groups can develop. And they're a good thing. It's not like, just because the 20- and 30-somethings all hang out together, they're hostile to the 70-somethings in the parish. We just find the people we have the most in common with and share our experience of the faith with them. And there are still plenty of occasions for us to share with people who are different from us. So...? I don't think parishes are at all incompatible with smaller communities. I think many parishes are too big and should be broken up. That said, there really is a need for more priests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) I'm not sure why the parish system would be incompatible with smaller communities. I just went Thursday night to the "Blue Jacket Night" in Lafayette. It's a bunch of 20- and 30-somethings from the St. Boniface parish who get together once a week (when the drinks are $7 instead of $9). Most of them are single, but not all. If I weren't a parishioner at St. Boniface, I might not know about it. (Although people from the campus ministry come, too.) Out of the parish, smaller groups can develop. And they're a good thing. It's not like, just because the 20- and 30-somethings all hang out together, they're hostile to the 70-somethings in the parish. We just find the people we have the most in common with and share our experience of the faith with them. And there are still plenty of occasions for us to share with people who are different from us. So...? I don't think there's anything wrong with people hanging out with people who have common interests. But I don't think that is a uniquely Christian community (though it is community). Of course, you can have subcommunities within larger communities, but that kind of misses the point of Christian community, IMO. I think monastic communities are an important model to look to, because when you join a monastic community the point is not to find people you like and relate to, but to create something that is different from social life, even with people you have nothing in common with and may not like. I guess I don't understand the purpose of being involved in parish life, unless you are looking for the kind of social community that you refer to. I don't think the external form of monastic community would make sense "in the world," but I think monastic community is the best model for the essence of what it means to be a Christian community, in a way that the parish model does not. Edited August 24, 2013 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I choose to give my time, talents, treasure to a particular parish community. I attend daily Mass at a number of parishes (wherever it is most convenient), and I try very hard to hit a spanish-language Mass on the weekend at my parish. In my opinion, the purpose of being involved in parish life is that -- to give back of yourself. There really is no other purpose. It doesn't matter whether or not there is coffee and donuts. Or a youth group. Or Cursillo. Or a Charismatic Prayer Group. Or a Marian group. Or a Neocatechumenal Way group, or a group that visits the prisons, or even to serve as a lector or an emhc, or as part of the choir, or to help out at a Church's food pantry or thrift store etc. Sometimes these groups form because someone in the Church sees a need, and offers to help. And these groups continue because people get involved. By getting involved -- I think the mystical Body of Christ becomes more evident. And if people don't get involved? Ok -- you will have the Mass (which is the summit and center of our faith), but the parish life will look "dead." I've been to a few parishes like that, and the parishes where I've enjoyed going to Mass the most seem to be the ones where there's a lot going on (even if all I go for is Mass and don't get involved). By the way part of the reason for greeters and the coffee and donuts usually is to encourage people to meet each other -- in the past, this happened automatically because you lived in an area and everyone knew each other, but now especially in American culture there is such an isolationism that you can live next door to someone for 15 years and not know anything about them. If you read about the lives of some of the saints (I recently read a book in Spanish on St. John Vianney) you start realizing that a parish was part of the social structure. You went to a Parish with people you most likely knew. Did this help Era? Just trying to give some food for thought :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Ah, ok. I misunderstood what you were originally saying. So your point is: "Parishes are too big. We should break them up or not have them at all." And you lean towards the not having them at all. Is that right? cmariadiaz' post makes good points. I'd add that a lot of people wouldn't take time out of their schedules to worship God if there weren't a bell ringing somewhere to call them to it. A lot of people are shy or don't make friends easily, or they want to make friends with people who share their faith. Where should they go? The parish, obviously. I have heard of scenarios where people who were regulars at large parishes suddenly disappeared, and even though they didn't socialize with others much, someone called in to check on them and found out they were sick, struggling with their faith, etc. How much more so would a thing like this happen at a small parish. And it's important that people know that others notice when they disappear, because these days especially, it's really easy to slip through the cracks of society. The parish is a support community and a community of faith and helping and love and charity (it should be anyway!), not a "social club". And just because people socialize at the parish doesn't mean it's a "social club". I've been to churches that really were "social clubs": I called them that because there wasn't anything else going on there except for socializing. They clearly were more like social services for really, really lonely people. Jesus was there, I'm sure, because He's always with such people, but you'd never know it if you just walked in looking for a "church" (in the proper sense). He certainly didn't get talked about in any substantial sense. In fact, I have been to places that called themselves "churches" but that did not mention Jesus as a policy, because someone might feel judged and get offended by that. If you think the Catholic Church is in a bad way... ! That's all not to mention that I was welcomed into my parish in Blacksburg even before I was Catholic. And frequently had dinner with a bunch of parishioners and their friends, significant others, grad students, etc., who weren't Catholic and didn't even go to the parish. I invited non-parishioners to parish events. A "social club" implies that there's some kind of exclusion going on, IMO, and no one is excluded from the Catholic Church (unless they choose to exclude themselves). So I think it's kinda' flippant to call the parish a "social club". Is Jesus the "President" of the "club"? I agree that some parishes are quite large, but what does it mean to be "too large"? If the people in that parish are capable of breaking up into smaller groups and still getting everything out of a Christian community that they're supposed to, and that they want to, then I don't see the problem. If they are incapable of that, then it's important to investigate why that is. Because they don't love each other? Because they have no spirit of service? Because they place their busy schedules before Christian community? That's a problem in the hearts of men, not in the parish system itself. Hope that wasn't too rambling... ;-) Edited August 24, 2013 by curiousing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 I choose to give my time, talents, treasure to a particular parish community. I attend daily Mass at a number of parishes (wherever it is most convenient), and I try very hard to hit a spanish-language Mass on the weekend at my parish. In my opinion, the purpose of being involved in parish life is that -- to give back of yourself. There really is no other purpose. It doesn't matter whether or not there is coffee and donuts. Or a youth group. Or Cursillo. Or a Charismatic Prayer Group. Or a Marian group. Or a Neocatechumenal Way group, or a group that visits the prisons, or even to serve as a lector or an emhc, or as part of the choir, or to help out at a Church's food pantry or thrift store etc. Sometimes these groups form because someone in the Church sees a need, and offers to help. And these groups continue because people get involved. By getting involved -- I think the mystical Body of Christ becomes more evident. And if people don't get involved? Ok -- you will have the Mass (which is the summit and center of our faith), but the parish life will look "dead." I've been to a few parishes like that, and the parishes where I've enjoyed going to Mass the most seem to be the ones where there's a lot going on (even if all I go for is Mass and don't get involved). By the way part of the reason for greeters and the coffee and donuts usually is to encourage people to meet each other -- in the past, this happened automatically because you lived in an area and everyone knew each other, but now especially in American culture there is such an isolationism that you can live next door to someone for 15 years and not know anything about them. If you read about the lives of some of the saints (I recently read a book in Spanish on St. John Vianney) you start realizing that a parish was part of the social structure. You went to a Parish with people you most likely knew. Did this help Era? Just trying to give some food for thought :) Thanks. I agree with what you're saying, especially about your going to a Spanish Mass. I attend an all-Spanish church for the same reason, it's important to my sense of community. But I think "there is no other purpose" is key. To me, a small group praying the Rosary is community, but I do not contribute to the collection basket. Not because I'm cheap, but because I find it offensive to hit me up for money that way. I think for me any attachment to the parish has to be "for no other purpose" than, as you say, to be there, as a person, not as a number in a district. I guess community happens "in the moment," whether in a prayer group, soup kitchen, etc. I do not find much value in institutional community, except on an operational level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 Ah, ok. I misunderstood what you were originally saying. So your point is: "Parishes are too big. We should break them up or not have them at all." And you lean towards the not having them at all. Is that right? cmariadiaz' post makes good points. I'd add that a lot of people wouldn't take time out of their schedules to worship God if there weren't a bell ringing somewhere to call them to it. A lot of people are shy or don't make friends easily, or they want to make friends with people who share their faith. Where should they go? The parish, obviously. I have heard of scenarios where people who were regulars at large parishes suddenly disappeared, and even though they didn't socialize with others much, someone called in to check on them and found out they were sick, struggling with their faith, etc. How much more so would a thing like this happen at a small parish. And it's important that people know that others notice when they disappear, because these days especially, it's really easy to slip through the cracks of society. The parish is a support community and a community of faith and helping and love and charity (it should be anyway!), not a "social club". And just because people socialize at the parish doesn't mean it's a "social club". I've been to churches that really were "social clubs": I called them that because there wasn't anything else going on there except for socializing. They clearly were more like social services for really, really lonely people. Jesus was there, I'm sure, because He's always with such people, but you'd never know it if you just walked in looking for a "church" (in the proper sense). He certainly didn't get talked about in any substantial sense. In fact, I have been to places that called themselves "churches" but that did not mention Jesus as a policy, because someone might feel judged and get offended by that. If you think the Catholic Church is in a bad way... ! That's all not to mention that I was welcomed into my parish in Blacksburg even before I was Catholic. And frequently had dinner with a bunch of parishioners and their friends, significant others, grad students, etc., who weren't Catholic and didn't even go to the parish. I invited non-parishioners to parish events. A "social club" implies that there's some kind of exclusion going on, IMO, and no one is excluded from the Catholic Church (unless they choose to exclude themselves). So I think it's kinda' flippant to call the parish a "social club". Is Jesus the "President" of the "club"? I agree that some parishes are quite large, but what does it mean to be "too large"? If the people in that parish are capable of breaking up into smaller groups and still getting everything out of a Christian community that they're supposed to, and that they want to, then I don't see the problem. If they are incapable of that, then it's important to investigate why that is. Because they don't love each other? Because they have no spirit of service? Because they place their busy schedules before Christian community? That's a problem in the hearts of men, not in the parish system itself. Hope that wasn't too rambling... ;-) Great thoughts, thanks. The size of the community is not necessarily the problem. I know a single Hispanic man who is a big drinker but started going to a small pentecostal church made up mostly of Puerto Ricans, and he was the only outsider. He wasn't Puerto Rican, he hadn't known everyone his whole life, and he was single and in his 50s, and the families never invited him into their family life, not just at the church but in their homes. And he was always an outsider at the church. And it's funny what you say about checking up on people because at my church there's an old Cuban lady who every week after Saturday Mass, once the priest leaves, she sings "Ave, Ave, Ave Maria." And everyone joins in. But she hasn't been there the last two weeks...and I've noticed! lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Is there an alternative to parishes? Seems all Catholic and Orthodox churches are structured with dioceses and parishes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Is there an alternative to parishes? Seems all Catholic and Orthodox churches are structured with dioceses and parishes... The model could be seriously restructured. The canonical parish system right now is a remnant of the days in which most people were born, lived, and died in the same town or county, and a diocesan priest would become a pastor, then typically stay in that community until he died. Lots of advantages to that system, but it just does not really exist anymore (at least in western society), since people are so mobile, and priests are shuffled every 5-8 years. I do not envision any major structural changes to the nature of dioceses though, just since it has its basis in the theology and tradition of episcopal authority and apostolic succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 The model could be seriously restructured. The canonical parish system right now is a remnant of the days in which most people were born, lived, and died in the same town or county, and a diocesan priest would become a pastor, then typically stay in that community until he died. Lots of advantages to that system, but it just does not really exist anymore (at least in western society), since people are so mobile, and priests are shuffled every 5-8 years. I do not envision any major structural changes to the nature of dioceses though, just since it has its basis in the theology and tradition of episcopal authority and apostolic succession. I think a more radical form of community would make bishops more relevant, not less (though it would change the way in which they are relevant). I would love to see a model where bishops do not have fixed homes, but live from home to home with their people. That might even work for priests in general. One of the beautiful things about St. Paul's letters is the moral and spiritual power he wields, because his authority is communal and personal rather than legal, structural, etc. But that's a topic for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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