Catholic Church's Claims Are Weak In Early History, Regarding Papa

[linate]

Edited December 29, 2018 by linate

[linate]

on the 'rome has spoken; case is closed' quote by Augustine, here is the actual quote... . . . "for already on this matter two councils have sent to the Apostolic See, whence also rescripts (reports) have come. The cause is finished, would that the error may terminate likewise." here it is in context...

"What then was said of the Jews, the same altogether do we see in these men now. “They have a zeal of God: I hear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.” What is, “not according to knowledge”? “For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and wishing to establish their own, they have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” My Brethren, share with me in my sorrow. When ye find such as these, do not hide them; be there no such misdirected mercy in you; by all means, when ye find such, hide them not. Convince the gainsayers, and those who resist, bring to us. For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see; and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue; would that their error may sometime be brought to an issue too! Therefore do we advise that they may take heed, we teach that they may be instructed, we pray that they may be changed. Let us turn to the Lord, etc."

==========

“It is nothing to wonder at — that they presume to blaspheme the see of the blessed Apostle Peter… And on top of this, they call us proud when the first see has never ceased offering them whatever there is of piety. They with their utter shamelessness trust they will be able to subjugate it.. I will ask them this: the trial which they call for, where can it be held? With them (in the East), so that they may be the plaintiff, witnesses, and judges all in one? Neither human affairs nor the integrity of the divine faith must be entrusted to such a tribunal. It matters of religion (faith/morals), the canons say that the ultimate judgement must come only from the apostolic see. The powers of this world? It is not for them to judge — rather they are to learn from the bishops — and above all, from the vicar of blessed Peter about divine things. No ruler of this world, however powerful, whether Christian or not, can presume to claim this for himself, unless of course, he is a persecutor." Pope Gelasius

Pope Gelasius I (492–496) stated: "The see of blessed Peter the Apostle has the right to unbind what has been bound by sentences of any pontiffs whatever, in that it has the right to judge the whole church. Neither is it lawful for anyone to judge its judgment, seeing that canons have willed that it might be appealed to from any part of the world, but that no one may be allowed to appeal from it.[71]

"pestiferious doctrine" Pope Nicholas III & John XXII "What John XXIII rejected was the assertions of a sect within the Franciscan Order who called themselves “the Spirituals.” The Spirituals erroneously held that their interpretation of the rule and lifestyle of Saint Francis, especially in the matter of practicing poverty, was the the only legitamite way to follow Jesus Christ. In holding to this erroneous view, they asserted that approval of their disciplinary rule by earlier popes was a matter pertaining to faith and morals; and since the disciplinary rule was equal to the Gospel (in their erroneous view), no subsequent Pope could change or revoke it. The above decree from John XXII refuted this Spiritualist assertion. Thus, a pope could (and sometimes might have to ) modify an earlier pope’s legislation or revoke it. This pertains to matters of discipline, not faith and morals. Thus, John XXII is not even discussing the object of papal infallibility."

Edited May 20, 2020 by linate

[linate]

here is a quote from cyprian, that appears misleading, and the consensus in the link is that the quote is next to spurious, and a quote that may be better.. 
“Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?” 

https://forums.catholic.com/t/misquotation-in-papal-infallibility-tract/25621/3

“After such things as these, moreover, they still dare-a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics-to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access.”

[linate]

Quote

Are there a few Bishops, specifically Popes, that asserted Papal Supremacy or things that can be inferred as such? Of course. However, what we see is their claims were consistently, and often definitively, rejected. If more Orthodox knew this, we would be less intimidated by the claims of the Papacy.

2nd Century: Saint Pope Victor I excommunicated churches in Asia Minor over the date of Easter.

Eusebius recounts this was rejected by all and later the issue was decided in Nicea I, showing that the Church recognized the council was the final arbiter in these matters.

3rd Century: Saint Pope Stephen I excommunicated Saints Cyprian and Firmilian over their doctrine on Baptism.

North African council rejects Stephen, Saint Dionysus of Alexandria rejects Stephen, and Firmilian claims the “eastern churches” rejected Stephen. The next Pope (Saint Pope Sixtus II) lifted excommunications even in the face of open defiance, claiming (inexplicably) victory that everyone agreed with him.

4th Century: Saint Meletius was not recognized by the Pope of Rome and the Pope of Alexandria.

Second ecumenical council affirms Meletius and appoints his successor, explicitly rejects the authority of the Papacy over their decision, reconciles with Alexandria, and tells Rome they had the consent of everyone and they do not belong to her. (This is literally true, read the Synodical letter of the council).

5th Century: Saint Pope Celestine and Saint Cyril of Alexandria excommunicate Nestorius. Nestorius appeals the excommunication to an ecumenical council.

The council (tentatively) rules in favor of Cyril and is only fully received by Antioch two years later, after concessions are made by Cyril. The episode corroborates Saint Augustine’s claim that the Pope and western councils can be appealed and overturned by ecumenical councils. A letter exists between Celestine and his legates and another between himself and Cyril where he acknowledges that his excommunication of Nestorius is subject to conciliar review. (Celestine, Letters 16-17)

Two decades later Pope Saint Leo the Great demands no council be held over the heresy of Eutyches and asserts his Tome settles the Christological controversy. Leo is rejected on both points. A council is held, his Tome put under review, and then he is forced to reject Canon 28 even though immediately preceding the council he accepted Canon 3 of Constantinople I. This is verified by Roman allies, legates, and western saints affirming the existence of this canon and Leo’s acceptance, as well as corrboration in every copy of canon law in Latin having it–including one contemporary collection from the 5th century.

6th Century: Pope Vigilius refuses to attend fifth ecumenical council, emphatically writing that it is impossible for the Church to anathematize someone after death, but otherwise affirming every other doctrinal conclusion the council made.

Fifth ecumenical council deposes Pope Vigilius and declares itself ecumenical. Vigilius recants twice.

Conclusion. I can continue giving more examples, but I believe the preceding suffices. It is pretty clear that the RC “narrative” that the buck stopped with the Papacy and that the only time the rest of the Church “went their own way” was when they were heresy is false. There are obvious examples of the churches and councils rejecting Rome when she was asserting false doctrines and practices, and rebuffing broad assertions of Papal power.

When people actually look at the evidence instead of focusing on a few flowery words with no actions or consensus, one may surmise that the doctrine of the Papacy is literally a solid and impressive looking edifice on top a foundation of historical sand.

This is why the whole historical approach of RCism is counterfeit. They have a shifting approach to what is faith and morals in order to defend any attacks against Rome’s supposed infallibility. But isn’t this shooting the arrow and then painting the target after the fact? Isn’t the ability of the Church to condemn people after death an essential matter of ecclesiology on par with the “doctrine of the Papacy?” Wouldn’t Pope Vigilius be in error rejecting this emphatically? Isn’t what the Church can do an issue of faith? Hence, didn’t Vigilius commit an ex cathedra error, something that Vatican I teaches is impossible?

This is why everything with RCs becomes a shell game of technicalities and arguments over what terms mean, a useless wrangling over words that the Scriptures warn us against.

If anyone takes a deep breath and looks at history like a normal human being, one finds the “Rad Trad” Roman Catholic presentation of Church History to be senseless–which is why almost every single Roman Catholic scholar which is published via peer review rejects it and only online apologist hacks pretend that its true.

 

[linate]

crazy that this thread hasn't been posted in for so many years. it's a very important thread, though.... so i'm glad its getting archived 

[linate]

Iranaeus on how he said churches look to the roman church 

https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/irenaeus-and-the-church-at-rome-in-his-day/

[linate]

https://catholicism.io/2021/10/18/perennial-catholic-teaching-on-the-roman-pontiff/

 

That's an impressive thread of church authority quotes from the church fathers. Probably the most concise yet comprehensive collections I've ever seen.

Edited December 18 by linate

[linate]

Early Popes and Saints

Pope Saint Clement I, 88-97: “If any disobey what He [Jesus Christ] says through Us, let them know that they will be involved in no small offence and danger; but We shall be innocent of this sin.”2

Pope Saint Clement I: “Joy and gladness will you afford Us, if you become obedient to the words written by Us, and, through the Holy Spirit, root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy, according to the intercession which We have made for peace and unity in this letter.”3

Saint Irenaeus, Doctor, 130-202: “But, since it would be very long to count up the succession of all Churches in such a book as this, by showing the tradition of the greatest and oldest Church, known to all, founded and established by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, at Rome, which [tradition] She has from the apostles, and by showing the faith proclaimed to men through the series of her bishops down to us, we confound all who, in any way, gather beyond what is right, either to please themselves, or for vainglory, or by blindness and wrong opinion. For to this Church, because of Her mightier rule, every Church must agree, that is, those who are faithful from all sides, in which the tradition from the apostles is kept by those who are from all sides.”4

Saint Irenaeus: “Those who have the succession from the apostles have received a sure gift [charisma] of truth, according to the will of the Father.”5

Saint Irenaeus: “Where the gifts [charismata] of the Lord are placed, there we must learn the truth, namely, from those who have the succession of the Church from the apostles…. These preserve our faith.”6

Tertullian, 155-220: “But if Peter was reproved because, after having lived with the Gentiles, he separated himself from their company out of respect for persons, surely this was a fault in his conversation, not in his preaching.”7

Origen, 184-253: “It is manifest, even if it were not expressed, because the gates of Hell can prevail against neither Peter, nor the Church, for if they prevailed against the rock on which the Church was founded, they would prevail against the Church.” [Mt 16:18]8

Origen, 184-253: “neither against the rock upon which Christ builds His Church, nor against the Church, shall the gates of Hell prevail.”9

Saint Cyprian, Bishop, 210-258: “Where Peter is, there is the Church”, repeated by Saint Ambrose and Saint Boniface. Confirmed by Pope Benedict XV, in the encyclical In Hac Tanta.10

Saint Cyprian: “If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”11

Saint Cyprian: “There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.”12

Saint Cyprian: There is “one Church founded by Christ our Lord on Peter, by the source and reason of unity”.13

Saint Cyprian, on those who “have gone out from us, when heresies and schisms were born later”, i.e. on heretics and schismatics: “Do they think the Christ will be with them when they are gathered up, who are gathered outside the Church of Christ?… He is no martyr who is not in the Church….. They cannot remain with God who will not be of one mind in the Church of God.”14

Saint Cyprian: “The Church which is Catholic and one is not broken nor divided; it is united and joined by the cement of bishops who agree together.”15

Saint Cyprian: “After such things as these, moreover, they still dare — a false bishop having been appointed for them by heretics — to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access.”301

Pope Saint Lucius I, Martyr, 253-254: “The Roman Apostolic Church is the mother of all Churches and has never been shown to have wandered from the path of Apostolic tradition, nor being deformed, succumbed to heretical novelties according to the promise of the Lord himself, saying, ‘I have prayed for thee, etc.’ [Lk 22:32]”16

Pope Saint Felix I, 269-274, speaking on the Roman Church: “As it took up in the beginning the norm of the Christian Faith from its authors, the Princes of the Apostles of Christ, She remains unsullied according to what the Lord said: ‘I have prayed for thee, etc.’ [Lk 22:32]”17

Theodotus of Ancyra, martyr, fl. 303: “This holy See holds the reign of the Churches of the world, not only on account of other things, but also because She remains free from the heretical stench.”18

Pope Saint Julius I, 337-352, writing to the Eastern Bishops: “Do you not know that this is the custom, that first you must write to us, and that here what is just shall be decreed.”19

Pope Saint Julius I: “It is not right to make laws for the Churches, apart from the knowledge of the Bishop of Rome.”20

Council of Sardica, 344 (not Ecumenical), writing to Pope Saint Julius I: “It seemed best and most proper that the priests of the Lord should refer from every province to the head, that is to the See of the Apostle Peter.”21

Saint Ephrem the Syrian, Doctor, 306-373: “The heavenly spouse has established the Church and made her firm in the orthodox faith.”22

Saint Ambrose, Doctor, 340-397: “Could not Christ, who confided to him the Kingdom by His own authority, have strengthened the faith of the one whom He designated a Rock to show the foundation of the Church?”23

Saint Optatus of Milevis, c. 370: “On the one throne, which is first in gifts [dotibus], Peter sat first, to whom succeeded Linus [a list of Popes to his own time follows]…. To Damasus succeeded Siricius, who is our comrade today, with whom, together with us, the whole world agrees in the society of one communion, by exchange of letters.”24

Saint Optatus of Milevis to the Donatists: “How can you pretend to have the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, [you] who sacrilegiously fight against the See of Peter by your presumption and impudence?”25

Saint Jerome, Doctor, 342-420: “The welfare of the Church depends on the dignity of the papacy. If we do not give the Pope sovereign and independent power, there will be as many schisms in the Church as there are priests.” Confirmed by Pope Benedict XV in the Encyclical In Hac Tanta.26

Saint Jerome to Pope Damasus I, 305-384: “My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.”27

Saint Jerome as quoted by Pope Benedict XVI: “This is what Jerome wrote: ‘I decided to consult the Chair of Peter, where that faith is found exalted by the lips of an Apostle; I now come to ask for nourishment for my soul there, where once I received the garment of Christ. I follow no leader save Christ, so I enter into communion with your beatitude, that is, with the Chair of Peter, for this I know is the rock upon which the Church is built’ (cf. Le lettere I, 15, 1-2).”28

Pope Saint Damasus I, 366-384: “The First See, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it.”29

Saint Basil, Doctor, bishop of Caesarea, 370-379, writing in 371 to Pope Saint Damasus I: “Our only hope is in a visitation from Your Clemency. Send us men who share our faith. They will settle quarrels; they will bring union to the Churches of God; at least they will make known to you the authors of the troubles, so that you will know whom to admit to your communion.”30

Pope Saint Damasus I, the Roman Synod of 378, to the emperors Gratian and Valentinian II: “Certain bishops, unworthy pastors, have carried their insolence and contempt to the point of refusing obedience to the Bishop of Rome. If the accused is himself a Metropolitan, he will be ordered to go at once to Rome, or in any case to appear before the judges whom the Bishop of Rome shall appoint.”31

Pope Siricius, in 385: We bear the burden of all who are laden; or rather the blessed Apostle Peter bears them in Us, who, as We trust, will protect Us, the heirs of all his government.”32

Pope Saint Innocent I, in 417, praised the local Council of Carthage for having “kept and confirmed the example of ancient discipline.” He states: “You have referred to our judgment, knowing what is due to the Apostolic See, from which the Episcopate itself and all authority of this Name has come…. You know that nothing, even in the most distant provinces, is to be settled until it comes to the knowledge of this See; so that the decision be established by the whole authority of this See.”33

Saint Flavian, martyr, Patriarch of Constantinople, died 449 — He was beaten at the so-called “robber council” of Ephesus in 449, and he died soon after (probably of his injuries). Saint Flavian wrote to Pope Saint Leo the great (I) asking him to intervene in the Christological dispute over Monophysitism [the one nature heresy].
“The whole question needs only your single decision and all will be settled in peace and quietness. Your sacred letter will with God’s help completely suppress the heresy which has arisen and the disturbance which it has caused; and so the convening of council — which is in any case difficult — will be rendered superfluous.”309

Saint Augustine, Doctor, 354-430: “For my part, I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”34

Saint Augustine: “Roma locuta est; causa finita est [Rome has spoken; the case is closed].”35

Saint Augustine: the Roman Church, “in which the ruling authority of the Apostolic See has always held firm.”36

Saint Augustine: “Unless the Lord dwelt in the Church, as She is now, the most careful speculation would fall into error; but of this Church [it] is said: She is the holy temple of God.”37

Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Doctor, 370-444: “They [the Apostles] strove to learn through one, that preeminent one, Peter.”38

Saint Cyril of Alexandria: “He [Jesus] suffers him no longer to be called Simon, exercising authority and rule over him already, as having become His own. But by a title suitable to the thing, he changed his name into Peter, from the word petra (rock); for on him He was afterwards to found His Church.”39

Saint Peter Chrysologus, Doctor, 406-450, Bishop of Ravenna: “We exhort you, Honorable Brother, that you would obediently attend to that which has been written by the Pope of the city of Rome because Blessed Peter, who lives in his own See and presides there, is in charge of all those seeking the truth of faith.”40

Pope Saint Zosimus, 417-418: “the tradition of the Fathers attributed so much authority to the Apostolic See that no one dared to challenge its judgment and has always preserved it through canons and regulations … such great authority belongs to Us that no one could argue again with Our decision….”41

Pope Saint Boniface I, 418-422: “No one has ever boldly raised his hands against the Apostolic Eminence, from whose judgment it is not permissible to dissent; no one has rebelled against this, who did not wish judgment to be passed upon him.”42

Pope Saint Boniface I: “there is to be no review of our judgment. In fact, it has never been licit to deliberate again on that which has once been decided by the Apostolic See.”43

Pope Saint Boniface I, to the bishops of Thessaly: “It is therefore certain that this Church [the Roman See] is to the Churches throughout the world as the head to its members. If anyone cut himself off from this Church, not being in union with her, he is outside the Christian religion.”44

Pope Saint Celestine I, 422-432: “The sanctions of the blessed and Apostolic See may not be violated.”45

emperor Valentinian III, 423-455: “We must defend the faith handed down by our fathers with all care; and we must keep the proper reverence due to the blessed apostle Peter incorrupt in our time also. Therefore the most blessed Bishop of the Roman city, to whom ancient right has given the authority of the priesthood over all, shall have his place, and power to judge about the faith and about bishops.”46

Pope Saint Leo I (the great), Doctor, 440-461: “The special care of Peter is received from the Lord; he prayed for the faith of Peter in particular in as much as the state of the others would be more certain if the mind of the Prince were not conquered. Therefore, in Peter the strength of all is fortified and the help of divine grace is so ordered that the strength which was given to Peter through Christ would be conferred through Peter to the remaining Apostles.”47

Pope Saint Leo I: “The order of truth remains; blessed Peter, keeping the strength of the rock, does not abandon the helm of the Church. Whatever We do rightly is his work, whose power lives in his See…. In the person of My lowliness he is seen, he is honored, in whom remains the care of all pastors and of the sheep of their charge. His power does not fail, even in an unworthy heir.”48

Pope Saint Gelasius I, 492-496, epistle to the Emperor Anastasius: “This is what the Apostolic See guards against with all her strength because the glorious confession of the Apostle is the root of the world, so that She is polluted by no crack of depravity and altogether no contagion. For if such a thing would ever occur (which may God forbid and we trust cannot be), why would we make bold to resist any error?”49

The example of Pope Vigilius, d. 555, as related by Saint Bellarmine: “It happened a little afterward, that [Pope] Silverius died and Vigilius, who to that point sat in schism, now began to be the sole and legitimate Pontiff for certain through the confirmation and reception by the clergy and the Roman people. From this time neither error nor feigning of error was discovered in Vigilius, but rather, supreme constancy in the faith even to death, as it shall appear. For he received with the pontificate the strength of faith and he was changed from a weak chaff into the most solid rock.”50

Pope Pelagius II, 590 AD, writing to the Bishops of Istria: “For you know how the Lord in the Gospel declares: ‘Simon, Simon, behold Satan has desired you that he might sift you as wheat, but I have prayed to the Father for thee, that thy faith fail not, and thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren.’ See, beloved, the truth cannot be falsified, nor can the faith of Peter ever be shaken or changed.”51

Pope Saint Gregory I (the great), Doctor, 590-604: “Who does not know that the whole Church was strengthened in the firmness of the Prince of the Apostles, to whom it was said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church … and thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren?’ [Mt 16:18; Lk 22:32]”52 Saint Bellarmine: “There Gregory clearly teaches the strength of the Church depends upon the strength of Peter, and hence Peter is less able to err than the Church herself.”53

Saint Maximus the Confessor, 580-662: “from the incarnate Word’s descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior’s promise, the gates of Hell have never prevailed against her.”54

Saint Maximus the Confessor (c. 580-662) was an opponent of the Monothelite (one-will in Christ) heresy. He was also a great supporter of the primacy and authority of the Bishop of Rome, and he even defended Pope Honorius I (d. 638) against those who maintained the Pope was a Monothelite. Speaking of the See of Rome, Maximus writes:
“This Apostolic See, which, from the Incarnate Word of God Himself, as well as from the holy councils (according to the sacred canons and definitions) has received and possesses the sovereignty, authority and power of binding and loosing over all the churches of God in the entire world, in and through all things.”308

Lateran Council of 649 (not Ecumenical): “If anyone does not, following the holy Fathers, confess properly and truly, in word and mind, to the last point, all that has been handed down and proclaimed to the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church of God by the holy Fathers and by the five venerable ecumenical councils, let him be condemned.”55

Pope Saint Vitalian, 657-672, to Archbishop Theodore (608): Pope Vitalian, servant of the servants of God…. And in accordance with the authority of the blessed Peter, first of the apostles, to whom was given by our Lord God the power of binding and loosing in heaven and earth, we, though unworthy, holding the office of that same blessed Peter key-bearer of the kingdom of heaven, grant to you, Theodore, and your successors, to hold unchangeable in your own metropolitan see in the city of Canterbury the rights granted in perpetuity in ancient times. If anyone, whether bishop or priest or deacon, tries to go against our wishes and the authority of our apostolic decree of privilege, we decree with our apostolic authority that a bishop shall be removed from office and priests or deacons be told that they have lost their posts; and lay people, kings or princes, great or small, must know that they are banned from sharing in the body of our Lord Jesus Christ.”56

Pope Saint Vitalian, Letter to Paul, archbishop of Crete (669): “What things we command thee and thy Synod according to God and for the Lord, study at once to fulfil, lest we be compelled to bear ourselves not in mercy but according to the power of the sacred canons, for it is written: The Lord said, ‘Peter, I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not, and thou being once converted, confirm thy brethren.’ [Lk 22:32] And again: ‘Whatsoever thou, Peter, shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’ [Mt 16:18]”57

Pope Honorius I, 625-638, to archbishop Honorius of Canterbury (c. 634): “We urge you, beloved, to persevere in the work of the Gospel which you have undertaken, as it calls for effort and perseverance on your part rather than shirking. Bear in mind the Gospel precept which says, ‘I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith should not fail; and when you have come to yourself, strengthen your brothers.’ [Lk 22:32] And again, as the apostle Paul says, ‘Be firm and steadfast, knowing that your work is not in vain in the sight of the Lord.’ [1 Cor 15:58] … Meanwhile, you have asked for the powers of your See to be confirmed by a privilege issued on my authority. This we grant freely and immediately…. But if some prelate with inborn arrogance disobeys our command and, acting otherwise, tries to oppose the privileged concessions made to the Church of Canterbury, he must know that he has been cut off from sharing in the body and blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”58

[linate]

how the orthodox view the details of 'first among equals' per the roman bishop historically. 

 

Edited Thursday at 12:08 AM by linate