Cvs, Religious Orders, And Virginity

[BarbTherese]

Barbara, thanks for the reply :) I think that's great that you want to identify with the least of those on earth - I think that's a very blessed thing to want. I also think it's great that you are able to rejoice with those who are called to any vocation provided God's will would be done! That is something I pray for myself to be able to do :)  I will keep praying about God's will for me..

 

God bless you!

 

Oh dear, it wasn't where I chose to be.  My marriage was very respectable and socially pleasing - and we were quite affluent.  I was a gentle, quiet, and refined young woman. I was literally placed with the so called "least" - and then all the refined qualities went slowly south when Bipolar announced its presence and my ex husband divorced me (many years now annulled).  I had to learn to live amongst people that I had never ever anticipated living amongst and as one of them, but not of them.  Psychiatric wards are cruel places - you have to learn to survive and the first thing I had to realize was that I was not in a Christian environment with Christian values and principals and not so much on the side of the patients either.  This was all over 35 years ago now when psychiatric wards were terrible places.  It was existence only, not living at all.

 

 Then the housing authority shifted me to an extremely poor area beset by every imaginable social problem (after 6 years of severe illness, dire poverty, homelessness and abandonment by family and friends, and I thought at times by God Himself so dire was my situation).  If I was going to be accepted, I had to learn the lingo of social outcasts and the poor.  I did!  I used to have a saying for myself "If you can't beat 'em, infiltrate" and to infiltrate one has to learn to be indistinguishable in any way.  When my belongings were eventually returned to me, the first thing to go to St Vincent de Paul Society was all my fancy upmarket-brand clothing.

 

What I discovered was why Jesus loved so much to be amongst the so called 'least'.  Their simplicity and their very open straightforwardness - and most often too a very humble acceptance of their place in society.  Not only this but very often they were very open minded, willing to listen, ask questions and to think things over.  I learnt so much from them, so very much.  What also really impressed me was that people really helped each other out in whatever way that they could - unquestioningly and willingly.  As Credence Clearwater Revival wrote "the people on the river (of life) are happy go give".  Here I was amongst the truly beautiful people...........and with student notebook and pencil poised as it were.  They had something, I knew, to teach me.

 

It was in realizing that God's Will was being done in me to that degree that He Willed that I began to realize the great beauty of God's Will and as the only source of real happiness, Peace and Joy, even in the cross and suffering. Nothing is objectively theologically superior to God's Will.  Nothing whatsoever, certainly no vocation on an objective theological scale.

 

Falling very ill with Bipolar Disorder was one of the greatest blessings in my life, if not the greatest - so much good has come about because of it.   The Holy Spirit can wear very strange garments indeed at times.  So weird and strange the garment that we do not recognize Him until He reveals His Identity if He so chooses.

 

And may The Lord bless you and yours also :)

Edited August 20, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Nothing is objectively theologically superior to God's Will.  Nothing whatsoever, certainly no vocation on an objective theological scale.

 

 

 

 Just to qualify what I wrote above a little further as it is underscored by Jesus:

 

Matthew Ch12 "As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?

 

And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren.  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother. "

 

 

Of course the mother of Jesus was perfect in carrying out the Will of The Father who chose her as mother of His Son.  What distinguishes her is not so much being the mother of Jesus, Jesus conveys to us, but for her perfect carrying out of God's Will with nothing at all left wanting.  Being in a superior or special type vocation is not the distinguishing factor, rather it is to carry out to that perfection ordained The Will of The Father.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Barbara, thank you for sharing! Thats' so beautiful that you can see it as a blessing, because often times people might get discouraged or angry about suffering. I think that's definitely grace :) I only hope that I can approach my little sufferings in the same way. St Vincent de Paul wanted to serve the poor and those who were "littlest" on earth and he was among them all the time. I think we can learn a lot from this but also it's a type of sharing in what God does: becoming little, as a Baby, and in the Host, to meet us.

 

Regarding what you said about God's will: I think in personal holiness, the highest thing we can do is follow and love God's will. Jesus told St Faustina, that true greatness is in loving God and in humility, and also that it pleases Him so much when we put His will above ours. Giving up of our wills and choosing His first, is very hard to do but it's the most important thing. I agree that it's very important. I just wanted to clarity that when in the other thread we were talking about states of life, we were talking only about the states themselves. A person's personal holiness is best based in God's will, and He knows how He created us and where we would grow and serve Him the best way. There were Saints who were called to different vocations. In the other thread, we're just talking about the state of life itself, hope that makes sense.

 

Thanks again for sharing. I wish I had more to say but I found your story very moving.

God bless you :)

[BarbTherese]

Yes, I understand really what the other thread was all about. In part it was a theological discussion on that objective level only.  My problem is that some may not understand and get things screwed up, really screwed up and especially in a forum inhabited by many young discerners.   I too, like some other members, am weary of the subject of superiority in relation to CV's that keeps on cropping up in newly started threads.  It has become a case of "methinks thou protesteth too much" (Shakespeare, Hamlet)  It can not only become wearying but being wearying become suspect, at least to some I think possibly, me among them.  Something just wont fall into place with me, I don't know what it is, only that it wont fall into place, leaving a gap in my thinking though why I don't know.  And I am very much aware it just might be me.  I am aware of the teaching of the Church on Consecrated Virginity and I embrace this wholeheartedly, it is the threads and posts that keep niggling at me and wont fall into place.

 

There can be no true personal holiness whatsoever outside of God's Will.  If I strive for holiness, then I am striving through Grace to unite myself with the Will of The Father in all things and holiness comes about insofar as I do unite myself with His Will.  Nothing good can ever be accomplished outside of Grace (Scriptural), be it the smallest good to the very greatest good.  And The Lord's Grace comes through His Will in however He May and to whomsoever He May.

[OnlySunshine]

Which includes anything to do with touch.

 

Are we living in the dark ages or something?  While masturbation is a serious offense against Church teaching, it does not take away one's virginity.  Virginity cannot be lost unless penetration takes place.  I will agree that things can diminish the purity of one's heart but virginity is an entirely different matter.  I think you and MLF are confusing virginity with purity which are entirely separate.  This reminds me of the argument that if you use tampons, you aren't a virgin anymore, which is also false.

[abrideofChrist]

You are mistaken, MM.  It is not dark age theology to state that voluntary masturbation does take away virginity- both in men and in women.  Can you back up your statement?

Edited August 20, 2013 by abrideofChrist

[OnlySunshine]

You are mistaken, MM.  It is not dark age theology to state that voluntary masturbation does take away virginity- both in men and in women.  Can you back up your statement?

 

It is not written in either the Catechism or infallible teaching that masturbation takes away virginity.  I would like to know what source you have pulled the information from.  I did so much research and I was not able to find anything in infallible teaching that says that virginity is lost through masturbation.  If you can find something, I'd like to see it.  There are a lot of differing opinions among the saints like Thomas Aquinas as to what constitutes a loss of virginity.

[OnlySunshine]

This question was answered on EWTN and the priest that answered agrees that virginity is not lost through self stimulation:

 

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=611442&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

 

Excerpt:
 

 

You are correct that masturbation is a mortal sin. Virginity involves sexual activity with another person; masturbation is about self-stimulation. So the terms do not really relate to each other.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2013 by MaterMisericordiae

[abrideofChrist]

MM- you asked where I pulled my information from.  I got it from some sources I do not have easy access to at the moment.  But here is some material to reflect upon.  http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum409.htm

[Sponsa-Christi]

Mater is right. ABC's understanding of this this matter is not what the Church officially teaches.

 

(I'm not trying to pick on you, ABC. I'm only commenting because I'm concerned for the people here who might have sensitive consciences.)

 

Even for the sake of determining who is eligible to receive the consecrated of virgins--which would seem to require a somewhat higher standard than just "normal" virginity--"solitary sin" would certainly not disqualify a woman from receiving the consecration of virgins, because this is not a "public violation of chastity."

[Sponsa-Christi]

MarysLittleFlower,

 

Please forgive me if I'm reading things into your posts that you didn't intended to put there, but I'm sort of sensing that you might be struggling with a few things. Since we can't PM right now, if you want to ask a question outside VS, you can email me at: sponsa [dot] christi [dot] author [at] gmail [dot] com . I'll keep an eye out for something from you, but no pressure, though! :)

[abrideofChrist]

Sponsa Christi, you are also wrong.  You are going against the traditions of the Church in your private interpretation of carnis integritatis. 

[abrideofChrist]

Here is an article for people to read.  Also, for those who are not familiar with theological terms the words "sin of pollution" refers to masturbation.  http://www.osjoseph.org/stjoseph/churchfathers/#Ch1_B

[beatitude]

Here is an article for people to read.  Also, for those who are not familiar with theological terms the words "sin of pollution" refers to masturbation.  http://www.osjoseph.org/stjoseph/churchfathers/#Ch1_

 

From that article: "Material virginity is lost by sexual intercourse (even if it is licit), by the sin of pollution, or finally, in women, by a voluntary or accidental act which causes the breaking of the hymen."

 

In other words, a woman who uses internal sanitary protection - tampons, Mooncup - isn't a virgin any more. Do you support this viewpoint too?

 

A great many of your posts express frustration with other posters for not conducting enough research or the right research, for not understanding you correctly, for not reading as much as you have. To me this is starting to look like a method of pushing people into agreement with you by making them feel that they can't possibly stand up to someone who uses complicated terminology and who announces that she reads four hundred page documents, such is her zeal for truth. (Most people here don't have time to read four hundred page documents.) It all boils down to, "If you knew as much as I do you would agree with me!" and that isn't necessarily convincing. In fact, it is reminding me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes, especially when you link to documents that deny the virginity of lifelong celibate women who happen to use tampons.

[abrideofChrist]

Well, yes, I believe that sanitary protection or accidents can cause a breaking of the hymen and thus a person looses material virginity.  But the virtue of virginity has to do with both the spiritual aspect and the avoidance of the first two experiences mentioned right before (licit/illicit intercourse and the sin of pollution/masturbation).  MaterMisericordiae and Sponsa Christi both wanted to deny the fact that masturbation causes a loss of virginity and the citation was to address that. 

Edited August 20, 2013 by abrideofChrist