Debate About Consecrated Virginity

[Laurie]

 God is very good to us to give us a powerful image of the Church's love reciprocating His own in the person of the CV.  The virgin brings both her spiritual adornments and her material ones to please her heavenly Bridegroom.  I remember reading about St. Therese preparing her wedding gown so to speak of virtues prior to entering the convent and later wearing an extremely expensive gown and lace for her physical bridal gown.  That same gown and veil would probably cost in the tens of thousands in modern money.  She knew this was to delight the eyes of Christ.

 

Very true! Therese & her sisters are a lovely example of how to transform material things into prayer. Again, shunning material things is the easy way out. Figuring out how to bring glory to God through them and how to please Him in the planning of them is no easy thing. (Theresa of Avila also excelled at this. She had a terrific sense of what in the nuns' routine needed to be kept as she tramped all over Spain founding orders and what should be temporarily dispensed with when they were all in a wooden cart up to their ears in mud.) Sanctity really is made of such things and such decisions. That's because it takes a heart centered on Christ to see clearly and transform all things in Him. It's a lot easier to choose the lofty, "I'll only focus on the spiritual things" approach, but that approach is inherently un-Catholic.

 

Cultivating purity of intention in all things we do is the life long battle of holiness, of any vocation.

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think it's sad that we're all fighting like this in almost every single thread :( I hope that if there's an issue people can work it out through private messaging (I'm not sure if it's working now) just so that Ima's thread can continue?

 

I remember reading about St Therese too and how she wrote invitations in the style of 'wedding invitations', and things like that :) I didn't know that about her dress! I want to see if she mentions it in Story of a Soul...

[Rosita]

Bellisimas! I like how the pictures posted are from women of different nationalities. I accidentally got a 300 page wedding planning book in the mail; it was intended for the tenant before me. Along with the all beautiful pictures and ideas, it included practical advice for all sorts of things. 

 

I find it quite funny how you can be engaged to the true Bridegroom and just like any other bride, you will still get all kinds of wedding planning (solicited or unsolicited) advice   :hehe2:

 

BoC, You are blessed indeed! I hope you are able to see your struggles here as an invitation from God to grow in holiness and to identify more closely with your humble and crucified Spouse.

 

A priest once told a group of us about how there are two kinds of people in the world:  saints and saint-makers. The choice is ours.

 

 

 

[Sponsa-Christi]

Okay, this is my last post here...

 

After reading some of the recent posts, I just want to say that I very am sorry if I offended anyone. I wanted to share my point of view because I honestly though it could be helpful to some people. I never wanted to hurt anyone's feelings or to disturb anyone. 

 

Ima, I did not know you had social anxiety issues, and I truly did not mean to upset you.

 

For the record, while I stand by everything I said about the focus of discernment and approaching one's consecration in a sober way, as I mentioned at the beginning, I do like the idea of a thread of consecration photos!

 

So once again, I'm sorry for the disturbance...and carry on. 

[DameAgnes]

It's not what the vocation to marriage is about either, but do you go around reprimanding girls or young women for planning their weddings? I don't see anyone obsessing over it, and even if the material is the absolute smallest part, it is still a part of it.

 

This is something that really irks me. Of course we need to be grounded in reality, but there's nothing wrong with fantasizing about one's wedding, consecration, investiture, vows, ordination, or whatever. Romanticism is not objectively wrong. Marriage is romantic as is the consecrated life, and that's important not to forget even though both vocations are also challenging. People need to stop telling discerners to stop over romanticizing consecrated life as if they aren't allowed to see any romance in it at all. If someone really is over romanticizing the life, visiting and living the life of a consecrated person will cure that better than scoldings from a stranger on the internet.

 

 

I wasn't scolding. I was observing that an over-focus on the trappings seemed to counter the whole vocation.  Sadly I sometimes feel like the maturity level here at VS seems to have dipped quite a bit, and this thread really reinforced that feeling. But increasingly around here, ppl are not permitted to question anything or make an observation or voice an opinion without someone seething back at them. 

[Laurie]

Thank you, SC, for saying that.

 

MLF, about St. Therese’s dress, her mom was a lace maker. She made exquisite Alencon lace, running the business out of her home. Therese’s dress had some of her mom’s handiwork on it. I’ve often thought I’d like my wedding dress to have some Alencon lace, in tribute to the Mrs. Martin.

[DameAgnes]

People who think the vocation to consecrated virginity is overly romantic, please post elsewhere.  

 

 

Wow, That reads like "people who aren't falling in line with me, shut up and go somewhere else"...

 

And it's a mischaracterization of many who have dared to comment on the thread. At no time did I ever criticize the idea that there is "romance" in the vocation of CV. There is romance in every vocation, to a point, and there is nothing wrong with looking at pictures, either -- they're very nice to see, and I for one enjoy them. 

 

My observation had nothing to do with the pictures of consecrations, or the "wedding day" except to note that the thread was devolving into wedding gown pictures and "this  is how I'd wear my hair" discussions that seemed to me, yes, "little girlish" and pointedly materialistic. And so I dared to suggest that such posts might have the smallest thing to do with the vocation, and so now, I should just "post elsewhere" or shut up.

 

Very nice. 

 

Frankly, if my daughter thought she had a vocation and spent so much of her time gushing about which habit she wanted to wear, I'd wonder if she had a vocation, and I'd suggest she allow herself to mature a bit. And if she, in turn, told me to shut up because I was harshing her buzz, I'd ask her to consider whether she was proving my point for me. 

 

Edited August 21, 2013 by DameAgnes

[Pax_et bonum]

I'm sorry. I should have made it plainer that my post wasn't directed at you Dame, Sponsa, or anyone in particular. Similar comments to yours have been made on VS for as long as I've been here, and it really hit home to me how wrong that is when I was talking to another VS'er as I said in my previous post. Other threads talk about the more serious and more important side of consecrated virginity, so it's ok that a thread was made with the intention of posting wedding dress pictures or hairstyles even if it seems materialistic. However, the externals are important too because we are both body and soul. We can honor God with beauty, and there's nothing wrong with taking delight in that. It's so easy to misinterpret people on the internet since we have no cues from body language or tone of voice, so I hope you know that I write this with no ill will. Also, sorry for adding to the off-topicness of this thread, Ima.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Pax_et bonum

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thank you, SC, for saying that.

 

MLF, about St. Therese’s dress, her mom was a lace maker. She made exquisite Alencon lace, running the business out of her home. Therese’s dress had some of her mom’s handiwork on it. I’ve often thought I’d like my wedding dress to have some Alencon lace, in tribute to the Mrs. Martin.

 

wow, very nice! :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think that someone can be excited about the wedding dress, the habit, etc, not in a vain "how do I look" way but just excited for what it means... I don't think it means that this is all they focus on with their vocation. I mean I wouldn't think that someone doesn't have a vocation just because they're excited about something like this. For example, a person might like the symbolism.

[DameAgnes]

I'm sorry. I should have made it plainer that my post wasn't directed at you Dame, Sponsa, or anyone in particular. Similar comments to yours have been made on VS for as long as I've been here, and it really hit home to me how wrong that is when I was talking to another VS'er as I said in my previous post. Other threads talk about the more serious and more important side of consecrated virginity, so it's ok that a thread was made with the intention of posting wedding dress pictures or hairstyles even if it seems materialistic. However, the externals are important too because we are both body and soul. We can honor God with beauty, and there's nothing wrong with taking delight in that. It's so easy to misinterpret people on the internet since we have no cues from body language or tone of voice, so I hope you know that I write this with no ill will. Also, sorry for adding to the off-topicness of this thread, Ima.

 

 

Pax.

 

I very much dislike all of the tension in this place and agree with you that the absence of non-verbal clues contributes to it. Also wonder if the Evil One isn't having himself a field day. :-)

[brandelynmarie]

Dame Agnes, I cannot prop you enough! Thank you! May God bring an even greater good out of all of this...

[Laurie]

I think that someone can be excited about the wedding dress, the habit, etc, not in a vain "how do I look" way but just excited for what it means... I don't think it means that this is all they focus on with their vocation. I mean I wouldn't think that someone doesn't have a vocation just because they're excited about something like this. For example, a person might like the symbolism.

 

Yes, I think so, too.

 

Adding to that, I remember a theologian saying once that there is no such virtue as "piously frumpy." You might be pious, and you might choose to be frumpy because you think it is "better" and "holier" to be frumpy, but it's not. It's just frumpy!

 

That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with plain, or simple, or even ugly close. But in themselves, they aren't virtuous. And they aren't "better" just because the person wearing them wants to be holy and detached.

 

He went on to say that to have the attitude of "look at me! look at how piously frumpy I am!" would be a fault, not a virtue.

 

Simplicity in the Church's sense isn't the absence of material goods. It's purity of intention and detachment to things because your heart is focused on Christ. It’s using all things ordered toward Him being your All in All.

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Yes, I think so, too.

 

Adding to that, I remember a theologian saying once that there is no such virtue as "piously frumpy." You might be pious, and you might choose to be frumpy because you think it is "better" and "holier" to be frumpy, but it's not. It's just frumpy!

 

That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with plain, or simple, or even ugly close. But in themselves, they aren't virtuous. And they aren't "better" just because the person wearing them wants to be holy and detached.

 

He went on to say that to have the attitude of "look at me! look at how piously frumpy I am!" would be a fault, not a virtue.

 

Simplicity in the Church's sense isn't the absence of material goods. It's purity of intention and detachment to things because your heart is focused on Christ. It’s using all things ordered toward Him being your All in All.

I agree with you that we need the virtues of love for God and humility whether or not we're called to dress more simply or not. I also think that dressing simply and very modestly, doesn't have to look frumpy, I mean I actually think that many modest clothes are more beautiful... if they're elegantly made. For example habits are very modest and I think they're beautiful and so Mary-like :) I think that feeling an attraction to dressing more simply or having fewer possessions is something that God could give someone, so it's a good thing, but of course they should approach it humbly and with love, not pridefully or just to get attention. I don't know if it's just me but sometimes even with good things, my pride comes up from time to time and it's like a temptation, so I think we should always seek humility... it's like how Scripture says that without love, we are nothing. Even if we do things like give up our body to be burned or give everything to the poor... or any good deed, without love, it is not valuable. God really looks at the intention too :)

 

In the past week, I've started reading blogs by & about CV's & wanted to share this beautiful photo. I think her dress & veil illustrate what you are saying Laurie. :)

 

That's a beautiful dress! that's what I meant too I think - simple and not "fashionable" yet elegant and modest :)

[abrideofChrist]

I was at my bishop's house for a meal with him and some friends today, and had nice memories of my consecration next door at the Cathedral. 

 

While simplicity is good, each bride has her own style, and I really liked the style Sara had for her big day.  Full bridal gown and train:  http://consecratedvirgins.org/usacv/sites/default/files/documents/newsletters/USACV_The_Lamp_Sept_8_2009.pdf  When I saw that picture in the USACV newsletter, I was glad to see such a lovely dress being used for so happy a day.